Revisiting the Spanish 74's...

Prefatory note: as most of the old surviving 68's and 70's were later uprated into 74's with the addition of QD/FC guns (which was all they were missing anyway), I'm including them in this thread. Oldest designs toward top; these are not necessarily to the same scale

1730 Principe (drawing is Princesa capt. 1740)
https://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaL.../119/j3211.jpg

1750 Princesa (capt 1780)
https://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaL.../122/j3218.jpg

1756 Triunfante (drawing is Monarca)
https://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaL.../772/j3259.jpg

1766 San Juan Nepomuceno, three different possibles--sorry, for some reason the Spanish archives only post these tiny little thumbnails, probably beause they want you to buy hardcopies
https://armada.defensa.gob.es/museon...nm_pb_0188.jpg
https://armada.defensa.gob.es/museon...nm_pb_0342.jpg
https://content.invisioncic.com/r237...3ba0d3361a.jpg

1769 San Francisco de Paula?
https://armada.defensa.gob.es/museon...nm_pb_0001.jpg

1770 San Pedro Apostol?
https://armada.defensa.gob.es/museon...nm_pb_0199.jpg

1771 San Joaquin (drawing is San Damaso)
https://i.imgur.com/CiMyC2Y.jpg

1773 San Miguel
https://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaL.../922/j2879.jpg

Bahama as taken--timeline note, the 1788 major reconstruction falls between Ildefonso and Montanes, but raked stern seems a throwback to older
https://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaL.../191/j2634.jpg

Ildefonso, as drawn by Romero Landa
https://i.imgur.com/YM6NAMi.jpg

Second Ildefonso drawing, specifically San Telmo (note, does not include galleries)
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/--8K32UL28...o%2Bplanos.jpg

74/80 Montanes (improved Ildefonso; close enough for comparison to pre-Landa/Retamosa designs) -
https://i.imgur.com/FIg7vW9.jpg

Anyone see any pattern here we can start grouping things onto sculpts by for our 3d-print gurus?

Another fine bit of research DB. Much as it pains me to say this but "I see no ships" in any pattern that is!

Rob.

I'd say San Miguel has a passing similarity to Montanes with the vertical stem and shallow rake of the gallery. Bahama's hull form looks somewhere between them and San Joaquin, but has a more closed-in gallery with fewer side windows--I suspect that may have been part of the conversion to prison hulk.

Since the jokers at Naval Action forum pilfered my work previously... well, "payback is a medevac."

Do we have a plan for the San Ildefonso or using the Montanes as they being a variant of the Ildefonso?

Right now I'm using Montanes as a "paratype"* in the absence of an Ildefonso drawing; I'll happily add one as soon as one turns up. The only one I know of is Diddams's 1/96 drawing of HMS Ildefonso fitted as a victualing depot in the Greenwich collection, which hasn't been digitized yet.
*In biology, particularly paleontology terms, when the holotype specimen used to describe a new species in incomplete or lost/destroyed** a "paratype" is sometimes designated that closely matches what is/was known of the holotype and adds more pieces to the puzzle.
**Textbook example, the holotype of Spinosaurus aegypticus, destroyed in WWII when a raid on Berlin fragged one of Humboldt Museum fur Naturkunde's storage annexes; the scientist who discovered it pleaded for it to be relocated to safety as other fossils were, but was kicked to the bottom of the priority list as he was rather "less than beloved" by Partei, Reich und Fuhrer. Whoa, you know you're venturing into arcana when even your footnotes have footnotes!

EDIT: Once upon a time the Spanish Navy had drawing scans on their website, but I can't seem to find them in the latest redesign.

As an aside, I don't think that plan the Naval Action guys cite as Glorioso really is, Wikipedia cites it as being Ildefonso-class from a book on Romero Landa.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...74_cañones.jpg

Found the Spanish site again! Sucky low res images though. :(
https://armada.defensa.gob.es/museon...ujos-tecnicos/

Looking at the drawings, Nepomuceno seems to have a straighter stem more like San Miguel and Ildefonso-Montanes; Bahama has a more bullet-like "ogive" contour like San Joaquin; and while San Francisco de Paula and San Pedro Apostol the drawings are too small to really comment I can't really tell them apart from each other OR the thumbnail of San Juan Nepomuceno.

I had a play around with the Ildefonso elevations.
Does this help you at all DB?

This is very interesting. Well done DB!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bligh

I had a play around with the Ildefonso elevations.
Does this help you at all DB?

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Think so, Rob, but the point of this exercise isn't for me to make the call--rather, more in seeking community consensus and building the process to get there. I'm only one voice in "Would We Buy This," and our two supply lines have different tolerances--the official Ares stuff has to cram as much onto each sculpt as possible, while Henry and Simon can do--and have done--multiple variations on the same basic hull to accommodate different galleries, bulwark/toprail structures, etc.

Do you think San Joaquin, Triunfante and San Miguel are similar so could be utilised. Looking at stern galleries.
San Miguel was captured and became HMS San Miguel, Triumfante a class of 4 ships , two captured, cant find much on San Joachim
So that could give a further 8 or 9 sculpts at least .

That first Ildefonso drawing looks like it was the one used by Simon Mann when making the 3D-sculpt.

I have played around a little in Blender and adding a little isn't that hard but removing is very much work.

I looked at modding the Ildefonso to look more like Bahama. Removing the guns on the poop and the forward most guns on the quarterdeck together with adding a little to the bulwark would make a quite convincing Bahama. Perhaps printing it at 99% to make it a little bit more different from the other Ildefonsos.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Capn Duff

Do you think San Joaquin, Triunfante and San Miguel are similar so could be utilised. Looking at stern galleries.
San Miguel was captured and became HMS San Miguel, Triumfante a class of 4 ships , two captured, cant find much on San Joachim
So that could give a further 8 or 9 sculpts at least .

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San Joaquin is a deeper stern rake and bow curve like Bahama, to my eye San Miguel looks closer to Ildefonso with the straight stem and shallower gallery rake. Triunfante shares similar features to San Joaquin and Bahama; I'd really like to see more drawings of the "intermediate stages" in between--the vertical stem is a feature shared with several French designs. I'd also like more stages before Triunfante to try to figure out when 1730 Princesa's back-arched upper stem died out--pretty much, the only real reason to concern ourselves with anything from before about 1745 to 1755 in Sails would be the stragglers still in service for the Seven Years War.

Side note, personal lament again: As previously observed, I REALLY wish Ares had STUCK to the Nappy Wars branding and kept entirely to Napoleonic-era, then spun up parallel and interoperable lines themed around the American and French Revolutionary Wars for one and the Seven Years War for a second, albeit sharing sculpts across all three as appropriate.

Here we see one of the splits in my personality coming out... my DO SOMETHING side wants to strike while the iron's hot and rack up sales with Henry and Simon to show Ares that there IS a market here, while my "No More Wave Three/Constitution Debacles" side thinks the "right" answer is to wait and see how many questions SWAS answers when it's published. (IF...) It's frustrating knowing that a solution to many of our problems EXISTS but access to it is blocked until some gatekeeper allows it.

If it'll help, here's my full list of Spanish ships in the 68-70-74 class...

68-74 gun
»1724-41 (Guarnizo) San Carlos ( 2 ) - 60/70
Santa Ana class (70's; Guarnizo, Autran) - dims not available
--»1729-43 Reina, 1729-45 Santa Ana
Galicia class (70's; both built at Ferrol-Grana) - dims not available
--»1729-41 Galicia (1741-only HMS Galicia), 1729-49 León
»1729-41 (Havana) Conquistador (2) - 64? - dims not available
Principe class (70's; Guarnizo, Autran) - 50.29x14.96
--»1729-46 Príncipe, 1730-40 Princesa - 70 (1740-60 HMS Princess, hulk 1760-84)
Invencible class (Havana) - dims not available
--»1740-47 Glorioso (1747-49 HMS Glorioso), 1740-41 Invencible
Reina class (70's; Havana, Autran) 52.73x14.65
--»1743-62 Reina (2) (1762-72 HMS Reyna), 1744-50 Invencible (2)
»1745-61 (Guarnizo; Salomon) San Felipe (3) - 70 - dims not available
»1745-48 (Havana; Autran) Conquistador (3) - 70 (cap UK 1748) - dims not available
Africa class (Havana, Autran) - 51.51x15.54
--»1746-48 África (2), 1746-50 Vencedor, 1747-62 Tigre (1762-84 HMS Tiger)
Princesa class (74's; Havana, Mullins) 52.12x15.65
--»1750-97 Galicia (2), 1750-62 Infante (2) (HMS Infanta 1762-75), 1750-80 Princesa (2) (HMS Princessa 1780-1809)
Africa class (Cadiz-Carraca, Mullins) 47.64x12.55 (seems suspiciously small)
--»1752-1809 África (3), 1754-93 Aquiles, 1755-1805 Firme, 1757-1807 España
Eolo class (aka Doce Apostolos; Ferrol, Rooth) 53.34x14.95
--»1753-63 Eolo, 1753-1806 Oriente (2)
--»1754-62 Aquilón (1762-70 HMS Moro), 1754-62 Neptuno (2), 1754-94 Magnánimo, 1754-97 Gallardo, 1754-90 Brillante (2)
--»1755 Vencedor ( 2 ), 1755-1815 (Ferrol) Glorioso (2), 1755-1850 Guerrero, 1755-62 Soberano, 1755-? Héctor
Serio class (Howell) 51.26x14.07
--»('54 Guarnizo) 1754-1805 Serio, 1754-79 Poderoso, 1754-64 Soberbio (2)
--»1754-97 (Ferrol) Arrogante - 74
--»('56 Guarnizo) 1756-80 Hércules (3), 1756-60 Contento
»1754-71 (Cartagena) Tridente - 70 dims not available
Terrible class (Cartagena, Bryant) dims not available
--»1754-1811 Terrible, 1754-1801/1808-17 Atlante - 74 (1801-08 FR Atlas)
Triunfante class (Ferrol, Rooth) 51.54x13.11
--»1756-95 Triunfante, 1756-84 Dichoso, 1756-80 Monarca (1780-91 HMS Monarca), 1756-80 Diligente (1780-84 HMS Diligence)
»1756-66 (Guarnizo; Juan) Constante (3) - 74
Principe class (Guarnizo, Rooth) 52.89x14.96
--»1759-76 Príncipe ( 2 ), 1760-76 Victorioso
Velasco class - dims not available
--»1764-1801 (Cartagena) Velasco, 1765-1801 (Cartagena) San Genaro (2) (FR Ulysse->Tourville 1801-22), 1767-1803 (Havana) Santa Isabel (3)
San Juan Nepomuceno class (Gautier; all built at Guarnizo) - 51.54x12.56m
--»1766-1805 San Agustín, 1766-1805, San Juan Nepomuceno (HMS San Juan 1805-18), 1766-97 San Pascual Bailón
--»1767-1805 San Francisco de Asís ( 2 )
--»1768-1810 San Lorenzo, 1768-80 Santo Domingo
San Isidro class (Ferrol-built) - 53.21x14.5/1658 Sp BM
--»1768-97 San Isidro (3) (1797-1814 HMS San Ysidro), 1768-80 San Julián (1780 UK capt)
San Francisco de Paula class (Gautier; both Guarnizo) dims not available
--»1769-84 San Francisco de Paula, 1769-80 San José (2)
San Pedro Apostol class (Gautier) - 54.61x14.3/1645 Sp BM
--»1770-1803 (Havana) San Pedro Apóstol, , 1771 (Ferrol) San Pablo/Soberano, 1772-1808 (Ferrol) San Gabriel
San Joaquin class (Cartagena, Gautier) - 52.94x14.56m/1672 Sp BM
--»1771-1817 San Joaquín (2), 1772-1809 San Juan Bautista ( 4 ), 1773-1810 Ángel de la Guarda, 1776-97 San Dámaso (HMS San Damaso 1797), 1779-1828 San Justo - 74
»1773-82 (Havana; Gautier) San Miguel - 74 (HMS San Miguel 1782-91) 55.49x14.64
»1775-1804 (Bilbao, Gautier) San Eugenio 53.34x14.64
»1779 (unk) Rápido - 74
»1779-1814 (Ferrol) Mino - 74
San Fermin class - (Guarnizo-built 74's) 52.94x14.56m/1683 Sp BM
--»1782-1808 San Fermín ( 2 ), 1783-99 San Sebastián - 74 (FR Alliance 1799-1807)
»1785-1801 (Cartagena) San Antonio (2) - 74 (FR St Antoine 1801, HMS San Antonio 1801-28) 53.3x14.6
»1788-1805 (Cadiz-Carraca rb) Bahama - 74 (HMS Bahama 1805-14) 53.34x14.64 qv 52.93x14.21
Ildefonso class (Landa; 74's) 52.93x14.49
--»Cartagena: 1785-1805 San Ildefonso (HMS San Ildefonso 1805-13), 1788-1823 San Francisco de Paula (2), 1791-1801 Conquistador (5) (FR 1801-04 Conquerant)
--»Ferrol: 1788 San Telmo, 1789-1803 Europa (2), 1790-1801 Intrépido - 74 (1801-05 FR Intrepide)
--»Havana: ?1790-1804 Soberano (2º), 1791-1801 Infante Don Pelayo - 74 (1801 FR Desaix), ?1791-1825 Asia (3) (1825-32 MX Congreso Mexicano)
»1799 (Rochefort) Censeur - 74 (1782-95 FR, 1795-99 UK; Pegase cl)
French Temeraire class
--»1793-1808 La Ferme (ex-FR 1785 Phocion), 1806-10 Argonaute (1798-1806 FR)
--»1808-25 (Lorient) Algeciras (FR 1804-08), 1808-47 Héroe (1801-08 FR Heros), 1808-14 (Toulon) Plutón->Montanes (ex-1805 FNS Pluton)
Ex-Russian ships delivered after 1816 cutoff, only listed for completeness
»Selafail class - 1818 Alejandro I, 1818 España (2), 1818 Numancia
»Triokh Sviatitelei class (direct clone 1798 Ajax, evolved 1744 Invincible/SC74-family) - 1818 Fernando VII, 1818 Velasco (2)

I’ve made a small try to see if I could modify the models and build my own Bahama from San Ildefonso.

Attachment 55018

Much left to learn to do if I really would do it.

Attachment 55034

Hm… I might even try to make Rayo myself.

Interesting data development... Mullins's four 1751 Africa class 74's are reported as around 48m long. No drawing for shape data, but might be about the right *size* to fake with Ares Bahama. They're 47.64x12.55m while Mullins's previous 74 design, the 1750 Princesas (plan above) are 52.12x15.65m--4.5m of length and 3 of beam seems a rather BIG difference for ships that should have roughly the same "core" of 28-gun LD/30-gun UD.

Triunfante is same length as Nepomuceno but about half a meter beamier. Stern rake is similar, but the older ship's toprail is a lot flatter and Nepomuceno has a vertical stem while Triunfante is more "rounded".

I've also added what dimensional data I could find to the list above.

Thanks for this extra input DB. It is all getting us a better understanding of the differences that need to be incorporated in the changes to Thanks for this extra input DB. It is all getting us a better understanding of the differences that need to be incorporated in the changes to achieve these ships.
Those who can, do. Those who can't, stand back and applaud your achievements. :clap:
Rob.

The same sentiment just made to DB includes your work Jonas. I stand in awe of you achieved skills in this area.:hatsoff:

Rob.

I just look at pictures and follow lines. DB does the real work here.

So we can use the Ares SGN112 as the Africa class.
Well that suits me thats four more ships and I can use up my spare small Nepo’s, only need another class of 4 now same size

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TexaS

I just look at pictures and follow lines. DB does the real work here.

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Admittedly that's not a lot different than what I do... harvest text from Winfield and ThreeDecks and look for patterns that suggest probable similarity (eg same designer, yard and on slips at same time), and then trawl Greenwich to see if they have any drawings. Madrid, I'd LIKE to use as a source but all they post are thumbnails that are smaller than our models... which make them completely useless for comparison. :(

Worth noting that we can probably assume clean breaks from prior designs at around 1729 ("first French" phase), 1750 (Jorge Juan/"English" design system), 1770 (Gautier/"second French" phase) and 1782 (Landa/Retamosa "Spanish Consolidation").

I had forgotten about Three Decks. I used it a lot when I did my History of the various British Ships of the Line. I must revisit it again.
Rob.

They're what Ares uses as a baseline, but I always go to BWAS/FWAS first.

Three Decks is a very good source but unfortunately no pictures which doesn’t give any lines.

When I check stats, I use WitAS British and French then back up with 3decks

While we're at it, 3-deckers...

Ship	Madrid drawing
1765 San Carlos 94 (note the backswept, archaic-style upper stem and huge "porch" galleries)	https://armada.defensa.gob.es/museon...nm_pb_0003.jpg
1769 Santissima Trinidad 114 threedecker	https://armada.defensa.gob.es/museon...nm_pb_0197.jpg
1779 Purisima Concepcion 112	https://armada.defensa.gob.es/museon...nm_pb_0004.jpg
1780s unknown 112 (Meregildos class or maybe San Carlos rebuild?)	https://armada.defensa.gob.es/museon...nm_pb_0005.jpg
1784 Santa Ana 112	https://armada.defensa.gob.es/museon...nm_pb_0007.jpg
1780s second unknown 112	https://armada.defensa.gob.es/museon...nm_pb_0010.jpg
1790s unknown 90	https://armada.defensa.gob.es/museon...nm_pb_0011.jpg
1800 another Meregildos	https://armada.defensa.gob.es/museon...nm_pb_0343.jpg
1804 unknown 112 by Retamosa (another Meregildos?)	https://armada.defensa.gob.es/museon...nm_pb_0025.jpg

Obviously these are not all to same scale, but does this look like a better way to compare drawings? (Also obviously, it only works with the smaller Madrid images.)

Certainly seems to show up the different traits better for me, but that could be because for the first time in 3 years I got some new reading glasses from the Optician this week. No! I didn't go out, he came to me. Anyway those ships work for me DB.
Thanks once again for your diligent work in presenting all this information for us all.
Rob.

Yes, that is great work. Thank you, DB!

Taking a second run at Madrid's holdings in the 68-74 size class...

Ship	Madrid drawing
1766 San Juan Nepomuceno	https://armada.defensa.gob.es/museon...nm_pb_0342.jpg
1769 unk 76(80?) to older Jorge Juan system	https://armada.defensa.gob.es/museon...nm_pb_0198.jpg
1769 Gautier 70/74 - ?San Francisco de Paula	https://armada.defensa.gob.es/museon...nm_pb_0001.jpg
1770 Gautier 70/74 - ?San Pedro Apostol	https://armada.defensa.gob.es/museon...nm_pb_0199.jpg
1794 Landa drawing for Ildefonsos	https://armada.defensa.gob.es/museon...nm_pb_0008.jpg
1790s unknown 74, susp another Ildefonso [edit: Montanes?]	https://armada.defensa.gob.es/museon...nm_pb_0020.jpg
1799 unknown 74	https://armada.defensa.gob.es/museon...nm_pb_0211.jpg
1801 Ildefonso-cl San Telmo	https://armada.defensa.gob.es/museon...nm_pb_0340.jpg
1801 Ildefonsos w/gallery as framing only	https://armada.defensa.gob.es/museon...nm_pb_0341.jpg
1803 Retamosa nom. 74 - ?Montanes class	https://armada.defensa.gob.es/museon...nm_pb_0006.jpg
	[img][/img]

Obviously, again, these are not all to same scale.

I feel that a bit more rep gunfire is in order here DB.:cannonboom:

Rob.

That susp. Ildefonso looks more like a Montañes if you look at the hull shape in the left view.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TexaS

That susp. Ildefonso looks more like a Montañes if you look at the hull shape in the left view.

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50/50 shot, and my GOOD eye is 20/400 uncorrected. Good catch! I should note that the dates on these are when the drawing was made, not the ship's launch.