Razeeing a 74

As stated before at one point, I'd like to try razeeing a 74.
It seems usually they were cut down to 42-/44-/46-/50-/52-gun-Frigates (the complete upper gundeck is removed) or to 54-/58-gun fourth-rates, only losing their quarterdeck and fore and aft bulwark (still remaining a twodecker).
Finding historical plans for the 42-52-gun Frigates seems rather difficult, the 58-gunner I am going for should look similar to this:

Attachment 20427

(Maybe a silly question but now that I have this picture where every single of the 74's original gundeck guns is kept, how would a 54-gun fourth-rate look? Which four guns would be "missing"?)

Trying around with Gimp, this was the closest I could get the ship to the shape of the depicted Razee:

Attachment 20428


So the plan is to overall lower the bulwark and stem, get rid of the whole quarterdeck, the upper cabin and gallery and the current on-deck guns. I'll also use the chance to make this my first overall repaint project. The ship (I'll go with HMS Impétueux) and paints are already ordered, I'll most likely start next week with the real work.
If you have any advice or more information about this kind of Razees, please let me know!




Edit: Is it possible to move this thread to the "Modeling, Repaints" subforum? I completely forgot about it!

The first progress: Bulwark and quarterdeck have been removed, primer and colours are already on. Also the first preparations for adding studding sails are completed.

The next step will be some work on the stern and the cabin plus painting the masts and shaping proper studding sails.

Following with great interest! Thanks!

Did you take any picture of the deck?

This looks like a proper job Richard!
I'm with Clipper.
Rob.

The deck is now completely flat (except for the part the quarterdeck once was. Cutting down opened a big square hole I tied to fill up with hot glue but it needs a lot of smoothening. Maybe I'll try some modelling clay). Also a smaller hole opened up where the mizzen mast stood. Due to the irregularities in the standard bullwark, I had to completely remove it.
Later on I might add some ropes or thin strips of plastic as railing.

Attachment 20468


(Edit: I hate how rough and unfinished it looks on this picture! :hmmm: As Jonas stated once: With modern photography we are able to detect every slightest flaw in our models!)

Interesting project, Richard. :thumbsup:

I cut out eight studding sails from thin plastic cards and attached it to two threads each. The masts are completely painted, I'm now thinking about adding some staysails, too...

This looks as if it is expanding to fill the space available.
It looks as if the outcome could be truly stunning.
Rob.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Torrence

(Edit: I hate how rough and unfinished it looks on this picture! :hmmm: As Jonas stated once: With modern photography we are able to detect every slightest flaw in our models!)

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It very much does. I have recently started taking pictures and look at them to see what I need to fix. I think my eyes are telling me I getting old.

I was wondering about how you would put the cut and how you would cover the holes that would appear. I'm thinking of doing something similar for the Swedish 60-64 gun ships that had the upper gundeck unprotected to lessen the tendency to get top heavy with 36 lb and 24 lb guns. The forecastle was more of a little roof over the deck rather than a real forecastle.

What a mess! Looks like she already fought her first battle!

Attachment 20484

If you are under studding sails Richard will this increase your speed or do you only set them to catch light winds?
Rob.

Both. Mostly increase speed I would say but you should not use the in hard winds.

Would that mean that you could exceed the maximum speed indicated on your card, and if so how could you determine it?
Rob.

I personnaly connect studdingsails with getting every advantage you can in a chase when there's only light wind (like wetting the sails or setting out boats to tow the ship) and always have this picture in mind: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._July_1812.jpg
Rob is right, it would be interesting to know how studding sails can get up the top speed of a ship in fair wind (or if they are near to useless and just press the ship in deeper). If they do actually help, I would extend the movement arrow on the maneuvre cards about 10mm when the studding sails are in use but somehow make her less maneuvrable (like, reduce her veer by 1).

I would think studding sails ar outside the rules of the basic game, but how about in light air you could use the one faster speed setting, but can't turn through the wind? I don't think they would have been used in heavier air except in chases, which is definitely not part of this game. I think the game is set up to happen at engagement speeds/sail settings.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dobbs

I would think studding sails ar outside the rules of the basic game, but how about in light air you could use the one faster speed setting, but can't turn through the wind? I don't think they would have been used in heavier air except in chases, which is definitely not part of this game. I think the game is set up to happen at engagement speeds/sail settings.

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They may be beyond the rules, but they are way too cool not to have just for the look of it! More! More! More! Note my avatar . . .

The British approach in the Battle of Trafalgar...

Quick googling:

Attachment 20492

http://www.argc-art.com/shop/image/d...line.image.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...in_mg_0579.jpg

Edit: But as said, it's not covered by the rules.
Edit2: ...or it is... Full sails could include staysails which are best while reaching and studdingsails while running.

Two answers seem to have come out of this for me so far thanks shipmates.
Studding sails for light winds as per the British Fleet at Trafalgar, plus the inference that full sail means the best combination of sails for the conditions, eg., full sail includes Studding, or staysails, even though not depicted on the model. After all some models can attain max speed and yet are depicted as under Fighting sails, so it would seem some latitude is allowed here. After all we don't take in sail on the model when going to fighting sail. So my question seems to be answered in that respect.
Another interesting question is now raised from the painting of the ships at Trafalgar. The battle scene shows ships in action with full sails including studdings set. Is this known to have been the case, or is it just license on the part of the artist?
Rob.

Thank you for the pictures, Jonas, very interesting!
On my Razee, I see the studding sails more as decorative but I'll have to change the maneuvre cards anyway: Currently she is still crawling with the speed of the slower 74s...
Maybe she should be as fast as the faster 74s (so maneuvre deck B instead of D). That would set her on par with USS Constitution (although the heavy frigate can use two tighter turns).
For the weapon power I would take numbers similar (if not a bit better) to Constitution, too:
While the American had an armament of 30 × 24-pounder long guns and 20 × 32-pounder carronades, my Razee would most likely carry 28 × 32-pounder guns and 30 × 18-pounder guns (if the main armament of the original ship was kept after razeeing. Or did they change it to lighter guns?).


Also: The first reasonably presentable pictures have been taken!


Attachment 20524

Attachment 20525

Attachment 20526

I like the idea of upping the speed a bit Richard.
With your reference to the Constitution, I wonder if using her as a Razee is possible too.
I did convert her to an East Indiaman.
Rob.

Beautiful pictures and they sure are decorative.

When I fought the battle of San Domingo I gave all British third rates but Agamemnon D instead of B to make it slower.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bligh

Two answers seem to have come out of this for me so far thanks shipmates.
Studding sails for light winds as per the British Fleet at Trafalgar, plus the inference that full sail means the best combination of sails for the conditions, eg., full sail includes Studding, or staysails, even though not depicted on the model. After all some models can attain max speed and yet are depicted as under Fighting sails, so it would seem some latitude is allowed here. After all we don't take in sail on the model when going to fighting sail. So my question seems to be answered in that respect.
Another interesting question is now raised from the painting of the ships at Trafalgar. The battle scene shows ships in action with full sails including studdings set. Is this known to have been the case, or is it just license on the part of the artist?
Rob.

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I'm pretty sure that was the case. It was very light air and Nelson wanted to close as quickly as possible to limit raking attacks as he broke the French/Spanish line.

And yes, it sounds like you have a good grasp of basic sail trim. A given ship has a top speed regardless of the wind speed and you pick your sail configuration to achieve that speed. In light air that might involve studding sails, in heavier air it may be just topsails. For slower speeds you could reduce sail or just not trim them as perfectly.

Typically in this time period, ships fought under topsails and maybe t'gallants, not because it was the fastest configuration, but because It was the most maneuverable with the minimum number of men.

Wow! That is a lot of sail! Very nice looking and well done!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Torrence

The first progress: Bulwark and quarterdeck have been removed, primer and colours are already on. Also the first preparations for adding studding sails are completed.

The next step will be some work on the stern and the cabin plus painting the masts and shaping proper studding sails.

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Good job.:thumbsup:
But how did you to remove the trees?

Not sure what Richard does Nicola, but I nip them off with small pincers at deck level.
Then file the end flat. Use a small drill to put a hole up the mast and in the deck. Insert steel rod and glue it back when ready.
Rob.

The fore- and mizzenmast came off when I carved the upper layer of the deck away, they are only slightly connected to the main hull piece, just glued into small plastic rings that came off together with the mast (that's why the holes are a lot bigger than the actual mast diameter).
For the main mast I used cellulose thinner to weaken the glue and then slowly heated it, until I could pull it out without any problems. I just glued it back in after painting.

Thanks for the replies.