Stretching Sculpts: SGN104 1760 Slade Common 74's

As promised, here we get into some of the ugly stuff...

Can work for or released as	Minor mod or maybe as-is	Maybe	New Sculpt	Unknown
*1757 Dublin (Slade, after FR Invincible) *1759 Hero one-off (Slade) *1759 Hercules/Mod Hero (Slade) 1760 Bellona (Slade) *1761 Arrogant *1763 Ramillies *1768 Egmont **1769 Elizabeth *1776 Culloden *1779 Edgar	downscaled *1763 St. Albans 64 *1744 FR Invincible/1747 HMS Invincible Lg/Mid 74 (root design) *1757 Valiant Lg 74 *1798 Ajax Lg 74 *1810 RU Triokh Sviatitelei		Derived from 1761-capt FR Courageux: 1783 Carnatic 1807 Mod Carnatic 1808 Blake (stretched version) 1810 Armada ("Forty Thieves")	Bately's Fame family: 1759 Fame one-off 1765 Suffolk & Mod Suffolk Williams's Royal Oak family: 1769 Royal Oak class (Williams) 1778 Alfred class (Williams) Provenance unknown, grouped by designer: 1763 Albion class (Slade; downscaled 1757 Neptune 90) 1765 Canada (Bately) 1782 Ganges class (Hunt) 1790 Brunswick one-off ('Admiralty') 1794 Mars (Henslow) 1801 Conqueror (Henslow; Mars variant) 1800 Courageux one-off (Henslow) 1804 Swiftsure (Henslow) 1805 Fame/Hero class (Henslow) 1806 Colossus (Henslow; Large 74) 1798 Dragon one-off (Rule) 1801 Plantagenet one-off (Rule) 1802 Repulse (Rule) 1806 Revenge one-off (Rule; Large 74) 1807 Bulwark one-off (Rule) 1800 Spencer one-off (Barralier) 1806 Milford one-off (Barralier; Large 74 version of Spencer)

*Known members of the Slade Common 74 "family tree"
NOTE: The Achille and Northumberland classes have been omitted from this table; as they are straight copies of 1782 Temeraires, they are more properly grouped with SGN102. Ditto 1812 HMS Chatham, designed specifically around the captures frames of the building Royal Hollandais.

For the sake of post length, I will be linking drawings in a separate post in this thread.

Starting with the sculpt, 1760 Bellona:
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLi...4802/large.jpg

The "baby sister", 1763 St. Albans 64:
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLi...3139/large.jpg

The very FIRST British-built 74, Slade's 1757 Dublin:
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLi...3781/large.jpg

Slade improving on Dublin, 1759 Hero (above) and Hercules-class (below)
https://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaL.../289/j2835.jpg
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLi...2737/large.jpg

Bately's Fame family:
1759 Fame and 1765 Suffolk no profile/lines found; only available is 1767 Ajax
https://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaL.../599/j2543.jpg

Bately's next stab at competition, 1765 Canada:
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLi...3799/large.jpg

Williams's Royal Oak family: top 1769 Royal Oak, bottom 1778 Alfred
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLi...3918/large.jpg
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLi...2448/large.jpg

Hunt's 1782 Ganges, also sometimes called Culloden class but NOT to be confused with the Slade 1776 Cullodens:
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLi...1254/large.jpg

I'm cutting this post off at 1782 Ganges, the last group of Common 74's that were under construction alongside Slade Commons. I'm also kicking Slade's 1763 Albion class into the next post, as it relates closer to the Neptune 90 it evolved from than to Bellona et al, along with the long line from the 1761-captured Courageux up to the Forty Thieves.

1763 Albion class (Slade; downscaled 1757 Neptune 90, which is shown below Albion)
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLi...1714/large.jpg
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLi...3273/large.jpg

1790 Brunswick one-off ('Admiralty')
https://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaL.../273/j2815.jpg

1798 Dragon one-off (Rule)
https://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaL.../335/j2860.jpg

1801 Plantagenet one-off (Rule)
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLi...4143/large.jpg

1802 Repulse (Rule)
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLi...4218/large.jpg

1806 Revenge one-off (Rule; Large 74)
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLi...4335/large.jpg

1807 Bulwark one-off (Rule)
https://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaL.../321/j2853.jpg

1794 Mars (Henslow)
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLi...0960/large.jpg

1801 Conqueror (Henslow; Mars variant)
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLi...9337/large.jpg

1800 Courageux one-off (Henslow)
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLi...3451/large.jpg

1804 Swiftsure (Henslow)
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLi...4778/large.jpg

1805 Fame/Hero class (Henslow)
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLi...8431/large.jpg

1806 Colossus (Henslow; Large 74)
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLi...3619/large.jpg

Derived from 1761-capt FR Courageux... first, Courageux herself.
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLi...5026/large.jpg

1783 Carnatic
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLi...3559/large.jpg

1807 Mod Carnatic
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLi...9657/large.jpg

1808 Blake (stretched version)
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLi...9642/large.jpg

1810 Armada ("Forty Thieves")
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLi...4514/large.jpg
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Middling 74's based on 1747-capt L'Invincible:
[original draught not found]

1757 Valiant
https://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaL.../674/j3609.jpg

1798 Ajax
https://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaL.../602/j2560.jpg
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Barralier's designs: top 1800 Spencer Common, bottom 1806 Milford Large
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLi...4754/large.jpg
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLi...3943/large.jpg

OK, that's virtually a complete catalog from start to end of the pure-sail 74 in British yards. Anybody have any contributions about assigning things to other categories than that long last column?

Some interesting variations on the number and positions of the stays on all these 74's. Would have been wonderful to talk to the naval architects and discuss with them why they made some of their decisions

Indeed. It's also interesting to note that all of the Courageux derivatives except the Forty Thieves have almost perfectly vertical stems that seem to curve inward for the keel much lower than the others...

For a note on lengths, all in feet, On Gundeck and Original Design unless noted with an asterisk:

Family	Class/one-off	Designer	GD Length	Δ from Bellona fullsize	Δ from Bellona mini
1757 Dublin	1757 Dublin	Slade	165' 6.5"	-2' 5.5"	-0.75mm
1757 Dublin	1759 Hero one-off	Slade	*166' 6"	-1' 6"	-0.46mm
1757 Dublin	1759 Hercules/ Mod Hero	Slade	166'	-2'	-0.61mm
1759 Fame	1759 Fame	Bately
1759 Fame	1765 Suffolk	Bately
1760 Bellona	1760 Bellona	Slade	168'	0	0
1760 Bellona	1763 St. Albans 64 downscaled version	Slade	159'	-9'	-2.75mm
1744 FR Invincible	1747 HMS Invincible capture	Morineau	171' 3"	+3' 3"	+0.99mm
1744 FR Invincible	1757 Valiant	after Morineau	171' 3"	+3' 3"	+0.99mm
1744 FR Invincible	1798 Ajax	after Morineau	182' 3"	+14' 3"	+4.34mm
1753 FR Courageux	1761 HMS Courageux capture	Geoffroy	172' 3"	+4' 3"	+1.3mm
1753 FR Courageux	1783 Carnatic	after Geoffroy	172' 3"	+4' 3"	+1.3mm
1753 FR Courageux	1807 Mod Carnatic		172' 3"	+4' 3"	+1.3mm
1753 FR Courageux	1808 Blake		180'	+12'	+3.66mm
1753 FR Courageux	1810 Armada		176'	+8'	+2.44mm
1757 Neptune 90	1757 Neptune 90	Slade	171'	+3'	+0.91mm
1757 Neptune 90	1763 Albion 74	Slade	168'	0	0
1765 Canada	1765 Canada	Bately	170'	+2'	+0.61mm
1769 Royal Oak	1769 Royal Oak	Williams	168' 6"	+6"	+0.15mm
1769 Royal Oak	1778 Alfred	Williams	169'	+1'	+0.3mm
1782 Ganges	1782 Ganges	Hunt	169' 6"	+1' 6"	+0.46mm
1790 Brunswick	one-off	Admiralty
1794 Mars	1794 Mars	Henslow	176'	+8'	+2.44mm
1794 Mars	1801 Conqueror	Henslow
1800 Courageux	one-off	Henslow
1804 Swiftsure		Henslow	173'	+5'	+1.52mm
1805 Fame		Henslow	175'	+7'	+2.13mm
1806 Colossus		Henslow	180'	+12'	+3.66mm
1798 Dragon	one-off	Rule
1801 Plantagenet		Rule
1802 Repulse		Rule	174'	+6'	+1.83mm
1806 Revenge		Rule
1807 Bulwark		Rule
1800 Spencer	1800 Spencer	Barralier
1800 Spencer	1806 Milford	Barralier

Based on this, anyone see anything that should be firmly ruled Out of Bounds? My gut says to move both of the family-trees that started with French captures and to move things as complete class families when known (for example, moving 1753/1761 Courageux and all her descendants as a block).

NOTE: Table is incomplete--it's 5AM here and I've been working on this all night, and I need some sleep--I'll finish filling in the blanks later, after I've caught some shut-eye and had some breakfast.

Seems to me anything less than 1mm off isn't worth changing; the ones which are 3-4mm off, tho'....

Well, we already know that Ares think unrelated designs and up to 3mm (11') are within their tolerances, going by using the Victory sculpt as Ville de Paris and her stretched sister Hibernia... though the tolerances may get tighter as you move toward smaller ships, given that the difference between a Humphreys 38 and a Humphreys 44 is noticeable enough to have seen two different sculpts from some lines in 1/1200.

And per BWAS 1714-1792, Dublin was also a descendant of prize Invincible--which thus makes Invincible part of the family tree and a candidate for stretching. It is also interesting to note that rather than being an evolved Allin 1745 Est 100 as previously believed, this volume has Victory as an evolved Invincible too, as basically an up-scaled Triumph 74 with an added gundeck.

Update, Invincible also appears to have had two possible near-sisters, Florissant and Prudent. That's maybe two more Froggie Reflags... too bad they go the wrong way in timeframe, we want forward to the Napoleonic Wars, not backward to the Seven Years' War.
http://threedecks.org/index.php?disp...w_ship&id=2092
http://threedecks.org/index.php?disp...w_ship&id=2068
http://threedecks.org/index.php?disp...w_ship&id=2129

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Diamondback

we want forward to the Napoleonic Wars, not backward to the Seven Years' War.

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What's wrong with the Seven Years' War (apart from: It didn't accomplish much)?

You mean other than the fact that it's way outside where the present limits of available ships are?

Prudent was destroyed in 1758 during the siege of Louisbourg; Florissant even earlier, and the RN didn't even start to get serious about large-scale ripoff of Morineau's design until the early 1760s. So Ares COULD do them, but right now there's nothing you could plausibly put them or L'Invincible up against...

Bumped for update with new or refreshed drawings!

Very good DB. Only wished I'd had those when I started my history of ships of the line.

Rob.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bligh

Very good DB. Only wished I'd had those when I started my history of ships of the line.

Rob.

---

Never too late to edit... :)

Very true DB, but at the moment I'm up to my neck just trying to catch up on both sites.
Rob.

Right now, my gut says to group future British 74 sculpts... well, lump everything Ganges and before into SGN104, lobby for a new sculpt for the Courageux Group and a second for the later Henslow and Rule ships--the "Late 74s" to be tooled with two different sternboards for open or enclosed galleries, both parts to be included in each pack.

Anybody have any thoughts to refine this idea?