I like the game how it is at the moment.
Hopefully they'll use a more stable system for the ship masts in the future.
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I like the game how it is at the moment.
Hopefully they'll use a more stable system for the ship masts in the future.
Bummer. I haven't ever tried any other miniatures rules for sailing, but my limited forays into hex-based sailing games were never that gratifying. SoG is far from "realistic" but it seems to capture the feel of age-of-sail warfare more successfully for me, particularly by allowing free-form and pre-plotted movement in a relatively simple and manageable way... So I'm willing to wink at things like the carronades...
Also, I would have liked to see the damage-chit system work more like WGF/WGS where it's a different chit/card pool per weapons system and you draw more or less chits at different ranges.
Make it 32#/36#=A, 24=B, 18=C, 12=D, 9=E. Carronades you draw twice (or maybe just half again) the chits at half range, 1/2 at full. Downside: more chits. :( Upside, more individualized representation of weapons fits.
If I remember right, DB came up with a pretty good system to better represent carronades. It did not seem that difficult to incorporate it into the game and made it easy to create your own ship stats for ships not being produced.
I have complained a bit about the lack of 19th century ships to better represent the Napoleonic period, but I wonder how well the game will portray the carronade heavy British and American ships of that period.
Here's the thread I am referring to above: http://www.sailsofglory.org/showthre...ght=carronades
I dunno, we both proposed systems in that thread--it might be fun to do a "shoot-off" between the two.
TBH I've moved on. Use yours. Not fussed.
David, not trying to be argumentative--just thinking that sometimes multiple approaches and competitive evaluation make for better solutions. :) Kind of like how the Royal Navy usually asked for two competing designs to be prototyped when developing ideas for new warship configurations...
No, neither am I, I'm just having a particularly **** time at the moment
OUCH! Think we all know that feeling, amigo... hope it passes soon.
Bobby, sometimes I think that with all due respect to Ares neither are they... Hull damage makes sense at least, it's a straight mathematical conversion from British tonnage BM IIRC.
What doesn't help is that while WGF and WGS are relatively "Open Source" in how they've converted their stats... while they both use cards for movement and chit or card draws for damage, comparing SGN to WGF/WGS is like comparing Windows to Linux in terms of "source code" accessibility.
Would like to see a "famous duel" series. For example the constitution vs. Guerriere or something similar.
Charles, I've actually suggested that Ares should look into a marketing partnership with Osprey--say combine the Duel volume on BHR vs. Serapis with a Duel Pack containing the two, similar with Constitution vs. Guerriere and Victory vs. Redoutable. Yes, IIRC Redoutable is Side B of the Kickstarter Exclusive, but I'd propose that this Redoutable be upgraded to Special Pack standards and wear Trafalgar colors and thus technically be a "different product". For British Frigate vs. French Frigate, I think Cleopatre and HMS Nymphe might both be tolerably represented as reprint Concordes--Nymphe was the lead ship of her class, a 1777 design by Lamothe, while Cleopatre was one of Sane's 1780 Venus class.
I also think this could be a winner with WGF and WGS, too...
The duel packs would make great gifts and prizes as well.
I have learned quite a bit from the Osprey duel books I have read. Their production and information value are high for such slim books.
I have put each of my shiplogs along with the identity card for each ship on my scanner and printed them off on nice glossy paper.
I was going to put each one on a piece of sheetmetal and produce a magnetized copy of each damage chit.
Now I think I'll just put each log into a document protector and use a dry erase marker for recording damage, of course there are still the crew actions to consider.
DB's idea hit the nail on the head.
Duel packs combined with an Osprey book would make the battles much more interesting. And for history teachers, a very hands on learning tool for their students.
Potential "duel" packs (if Ares is listening...)
Nymphe vs Cleopatre
Mars vs Hercule
Ambuscade vs Baionnaise
Constellation vs Insurgents
Constellation vs Vengeance
Constitution vs Guerriere
United States vs Macedonian
Constitution vs Java
Chesapeake vs Shannon
Wasp vs Reindeer
Ranger vs Drake
Bonhomme Richard vs Serapis
Constitution vs Cyane & Levant
I'm sure there's more, that's just off the top of my head. Please make these and take my money....
Charles, you'd be surprised how deaf gaming companies can be--back in Axis & Allies War at Sea days, we pleaded with them for YEARS to complete the Pearl Harbor Six, and in the end they did five and tossed us a big fat F--- You without even having the courtesy to officially announce the line's discontinuance.
Anyway, my thinking is that the best way to go for Duel Packs, other than specific pairs to go with existing Osprey volumes, would be to look for evenly-matched engagements or at least roughly so. Not sure how BHR vs. Serapis stacks up as a "fair fight" with that psychopathic piece of garbage Landais taking potshots at both... if I'da been his XO he'd have been fed to the sharks. Generally it's also best to start with existing sculpts to save tooling so all they have to do is redecorate and figure out how to re-detail for a "Premium Edition".
I don't recommend ANYTHING Osprey does as an exhaustive detail resource, but they are generally a pretty good "primer course" on their subjects with a few leads to follow for further steps.
Duel Packs with Osprey volumes would be great for those of us that like the game but are lacking in knowledge of the subject mater. Makes for a great place to start for learning more.
The other thing I'd suggest for Osprey/DP combos would be to make the Book Pack edition a unique repaint, and maybe include a pre-written scenario along with a write-up of how the battle would have played out in game terms.
"In game terms, what this means is that Nelson scored a Raking Stern Broadside with combined Double-Shot and First Shot bonuses against Bucentaure, and since he was shooting a mixed load he chose to draw half his chits from regular cannon and half from grapeshot. Obviously, Nelson had a very lucky draw that turn..."
DB, though I doubt Osprey and Ares would come together for such a venture, the idea is fantastic. I think to read a historical account in which the story makes touch points to game mechanics would be awesome.
I am currently reading a Pathfinder RPG novel, and I can see the game mechanics in-between the lines. The story is helping me understand the rule system better.
Oh, I could tell stories from my Wizkids days... they even brushed off the inputs of us Envoys with alarming regularity--I once had to demonstrate on a gaming table precisely why allowing crew with "move then shoot" and "shoot then move" abilities to stack into a "Move->Shoot->Move" cycle was so broken, and why just having the two on the same ship if you had any "give this ship an extra action" abilities was so powerful. Put a Smokepot on the former that you could fire without a target, you were basically steaming at double speed; the latter you could pop in, lay two broadsides or a broadside and a smokescreen and just run away without any reprisal.
They had to WATCH me curbstomp somebody with it at Envoy "Appreciation" Night to see the problem.
Played alot of car wars myself years ago, but when I looked at what they had done to it a few years ago I decided I'll just keep my old set.
Unless you Kickstarted the _OGRE Designer's Edition_: You can't. There's a special section of the _CW_ conference on the SJG forum for discussing _CW_. Officially, we're not supposed to discuss what goes on in there; but I can definitely say SJG's being run by Suits, not Gamers, these days.
And this is why, as I type this, I am also looking into 3d printing costs for minis in 1/200 or so scale, as well as game-design law (specifically: What constitutes "plagiarism").... :P
I'm the relative newbie to SOG (and by relative, I mean I AM the newbie), but I had a few thoughts on the game:
1) Someone mentioned removable masts, and I would agree that this would be good for multiple reasons. First, it would alleviate some of the broken mast issues that have come up with the ships (I have thus far been lucky and had only one broken mast).
2) I like the idea of the duel packs. This would work well if they decide to introduce a pirate faction.
3) I know Ares is still getting started, but I think they should look into seeing if they can work out some sort of licensing deal with Patrick O'Brien, the author of the Master and Commander series, which is set in the game's predominant era.
4) I guess it's obvious... more ships, more nations, and (obviously) pirate ships.
5) I think this would be a good idea for a Halloween promotion, but Ares should think about releasing the Flying Dutchman, either as a standard ship model, or (for a twist to the game) a "ghost" version of the ship.
Dave, some thoughts...
1. Discussed before, Ares is heels-dug-in resistant.
2. Agreed--if we bear in mind that the Golden Age of Piracy would require a whole new expansion of SOG, as it was separated from the Napoleonic era by the better part of a century and almost all ships of the time were one-offs.
3. Problem is, while many of the ships in the Aubrey-Maturin canon were inspired by the designs of actual ships, the supermajority of the named ships Jack Aubrey served on existed only in O'Brien's pages. Thus, you would need an Aubrey-Maturin wave completely separated from the historical line, because a lot of pure-historical sorts, myself included, would decline to buy fictional ships. That said, for those who DO have the interest I would not complain about such a line and think it might be a good source of revenue, I just wouldn't spend my money on it. A lot of the research has already been done on the ScaryFanGirl site... Similar problem with the ships of Horatio Hornblower's career.
4. Agreed, agreed, and agreed with the reservation in 2.
5. See 3.
Not trying to argue, amigo, just to elaborate on some of your thoughts, both potentials and pitfalls. One thing I've been hearing quite a bit, and agree with myself, is that we need better differentiation between ships of the same sculpt, because if the only differences are name/paint/flag the market for new reprints will be limited to only those who missed out on the prior wave and completists like me. One of those folks raising the issue and I have already started thinking about how Ares could slipstream in an Optional Rules addition giving each ship some unique ability... and thus a reason to choose one ship over another for a given set of scenario objectives, since single combat and straight beat-em-ups will only hold one's attention so long.
I do agree with the better differentiation between ships. I am relatively new to the hobby and thus, do not have the knowledge base to tell one ship from another (which is probably why I will probably just pick up one of each of the ships). I have to admit I even had trouble telling the ships apart in the packaging beyond looking for which ship had what flag.
I will concede that the golden age of piracy is a little bit beyond the scope of Sails of Glory at the moment. But I would not be surprised to see it as a possible spin off similar to Wings of Glory WW1. As it still stands, there were still quite enough pirates out there in the 1790s to 1820s that a few ships could be added for historical significance (like Jean Lafitte and his brother Pierre).
I do see your point on the purely historical aspect of the game. But, Ares does need to look at this game from a business standpoint. Picking up a license for the Aubrey-Maturin or Horatio Hornblower (which, if I vaguely remember copyright law, quite possibly could be in public domain) could bring in new players which will buy new ships and new accessories, which brings in money which will allow them to produce ships for the historical line as well. Granted, I also believe that these ships should be either their own wave (and delineated that they are fictional ships), or their own expansion which will allow players to play them on their own, or with the historical ships of the main line.
As for the Flying Dutchman... historical or not, I still think it would be a cool Halloween promotion for the series, but that's just me.
Several issues have been brought up that that I think can have a complimentary solution:
1) Lack of differentiation between ships within class.
2) The damage system range is very narrow in scale from top to bottom and limits variation.
3) They've completely ignored carronades and bow/stern chasers.
If they introduced ships and rules for carronades and bow/stern chasers, they open up so many possibilities for variation and differentiation between ships that would increase potential interest in further sales.
Chasers: If a ruler aligned with the line at front/rear of the card intersects an enemy ship between foremast and mizzenmast, you may fire Bow or Stern Chasers. The target draws one damage chit.
So simple, a Munchkin could do it.
I don't think Ares will change anything. I am real interested in seeing the how they are going to handle ships with significant numbers of carronades. I would take all the ships and calculate the firepower factors to the system DB created (the one we have discussed at least a couple of times) and use that system to make new ship cards if my graphic and printing skills weren't so bad.
You want SGN Pirates? Use British frigates attacking peace (pieces of 8 that is) loving Spanish treasure ships.:takecover:
Point with my chaser comment is, there are any number of ways many popularly-requested features can be incorporated as new Optional Rules, with no need to change existing ship cards, logs or minis. Bonus: by making them Optional Rules, the people that want them CAN have them, and the people who'd rather not don't have to.