Not real impressed with the ARES site. If this is addressed somewhere else, let me know. What are the US ships or comparable models currently available in the game?
Printable View
Not real impressed with the ARES site. If this is addressed somewhere else, let me know. What are the US ships or comparable models currently available in the game?
Try this thread:
http://www.sailsofglory.org/showthre...highlight=1797
:beer: It's sad to say but there are only two. :beer: hopefully there will be more in the future. :beer:
Interestingly enough Langton's Miniatures only has 4 named US ships. We really weren't a major naval power compared to some. I've never researched the merchant fleet numbers though? Perhaps those counts were higher for US ships?
We might not have been a major power in comparison, but that does not automatically mean there isn't a market. As we have discussed before, it would be nice to have ships of sufficient type to do War of 1812.
The question is, would the U.S. market make a run of U.S. ships profitable? There are so many directions one could go with respect to the Age of Sail, that I doubt a company like Ares could be able to please everyone, but if sufficient market demand is present for a line, I hope they will listen. Same thing we've been saying since the KS.
Right now, we only have two SKU's for three ships total--though I will note that there is a possibility of *maybe* having another in Wave 4; do not hold your breath, as it's only In Discussion and there are a lot of hurdles that have to be cleared for it to happen. Like we gotta get through Wave Three first, for one... but I can say that *if* the concepts I've seen for Wave Four come to pass those four sculpts are going to mean a lot of really excited people around here.
[Mike Ditka voice] "And that's all I got to say about that." *mike drop*
I don't know how others feel but my patience is about at its limit. I might not mind so much if Ares would just lay their cards out on the table and just let us know where they are heading with this game. I then would not mind the wait if they were going to produce things that interested me or would be appreciative that I could move on to something else if not.
I don't know whether Ares quite knows where they are going yet, and they may be taking tentative steps in a few different directions
Obviously they started thinking that a straight replay of the Wings sales and distribution approach would work with Sails. What they seem to have realized in the last 6 months or so is that Sails is a different product. It has a lot of potential and the models get people excited (KS, awards, etc.), but the Wings approach needs to be shaken up because it doesn't create enough incentives to buy more ships.
I question whether they've firmly settled on what strategy(s) they will take in response to that realization though. My sense is they are still brainstorming and trying stuff out...
I think this is where Ares is at, but it doesn't help folks who are trying to decide whether or not they're going to stay invested in the game. I'd love to ask them some direct questions at Gen Con, but I suspect they might not know the answers? It's been stated that they play their cards close to their chest, which is pretty accurate. Heck, they wont even tell folks what the next wave box color is going to be! :wink:Quote:
I question whether they've firmly settled on what strategy(s) they will take in response to that realization though. My sense is they are still brainstorming and trying stuff out...
Part of the reason they, and we on the research team, do that is that there's a lot of room for things they want to do to go sideways between concept and release, like we may not be able to find good plans to draw from--for example I've been lobbying hard for Bonhomme Richard but the only good plan that exists is a copyrighted forensic reconstruction based on several near-sisters. Similarly, paint schemes are frequently conjecture based on eyewitness descriptions and contemporary paintings; we generally can't be certain of a lot here.
We don't want to announce something BIG, get your hopes up and then trigger mass disappointment if we turn out unable to deliver.
Believe me, I'm as frustrated by it as you are--and doubly so given that I get to see some exciting news that I can't share with the rest of the class! Believe me, they're trying, and David and I and several others are nudging and prodding and doing what we can where we can... a large part of it's the cash flows to finance production and what the market seems willing to support. Let's face it, we're a loud and vocal niche but we *are* still a niche.
One of the problems is that players might move sideways out the door. :wink:
Wow, I must have found the "Hot Button"...........
Buttons, yes, but unlike what I have seen on Boardgamegeek, no buttheads. At least folk here are civil, if not downright friendly.
I agree. I would love to have the American frigates that fought in the Mediterranean. I would also like to play ships commanded by J. Paul Jones, and even the one that Franklin commanded during an engagement of the coast of Scotland, if memory serves me well.
Maybe we should write ARES games; In fact, I'm gonna write something to this effect on their Facebook page.
Please let us know the contents if you receive a response.
There was a reason for this: The country at the time had only existed for ~35 years -- and even less if one discounts the years spent under the ineffectual Articles of Confederation.
There were a lot of US merchant ships (which is part of what led up to the mess in 1812, as well as the Barbary Coast campaigns) -- some 1,000,000 tons by 1810; generally held as the largest "neutral" merchant fleet of the period. Unfortunately, nozzleheads like Jefferson and Madison never quite twigged to the idea "if you go somewhere, even if it's just to trade, You Are Involved In Local Politics"; so were badly out-of-position for dealing with problems like the Barbary Corsairs and British at-sea impressment.
Not sure I would call Jefferson and Madison a "nozzlehead." Mistakes on the international scene aside, they did have "successfully started first successful large federal republican government in history" on there resumes...
First successful large Republic ?
Roman Republic, lasted from 509 to 27 BC was pretty successful I believe.
I have read this thread with interest and with a little smile I must admit.
Yes only two American ships currently, but surely the name of the game suggests why, Sails of Glory ( Napoleonic Wars) apart from the War of 1812 I don't believe the U.S. Was involved in this to any extent, also at this time as pointed out already , as a nation the US was only 30 odd years old and had, correct me if I'm wrong, no SoL and a few Ocean going frigates, the rest of the navy being coastal brigs and lake craft.
Before turning to the fledgling USN there are a number of other Navies that have, shall we say, a bigger stake in the running for Ares. Ie the Dutch Navy, Russian Navy, Danish Navy and the Swedish Navy.
This is not to say no U.S. frigates at all but there are a few other ships that we could do with first. Personally I would love to see HMS Temeraire a 98 gun 2nd rate, but unlikely to see as there were only three of the class and may not be feasable.
I posed this concern to ARES on their facebook page. They said that they are planning on producing more American ships for the game, including one commanded by one J. Paul Jones, Esq.
"
Myself and a group of fellow "Sails of Glory" players commented on how much we would like for ARES to extend the amount of American navy ships that the game currently has. Since you've already introduced the USS Constitution, other ships would add nicely to our game. In fact, ships commanded by John Paul Jones and the Revolutionary American Navy, however small, would make a great addition to the game!
11Like · Comment
..
Ares Games likes this.
.
Ares Games We have the little ship-sloop (SGN107C Thorn/Atalanta) in our range already, but we will add more US ships, including Jones' Bonhonne Richard, in the future.
Note I said "first successful large federal" republic. The Roman Republic was never federal. Moreover, I would debate that it was ever a "large" republic, or at least a "large republic" for any length of time. The Roman republic institutions were more or less limited to the city of Rome for most of its existence. Rome to not control large tracts of territory outside its immediate vicinity until the decades before the Roman Civil War, and that form of government was never extended to those conquered territories. On the other hand, it was in near immediate aftermath of granting citizenship to to the residents of its Italian client city-states (after the Social Wars), that the Roman Republic started to come apart at the seams.
I think comparing the Bon Homme Richard and HMS Victory in fame would be more than a tad exaggerated. :takecover:
Throughout history certain ships have attained legendary status, HMS Victory, Bismark, The Argo, Titanic, USS Yorktown etc etc, it takes an awful lot to break into that group of ships.
On the downside, the cat's out of the bag. On the upside, the confirmation of BHR *should* give you overeager sharks some chum for the waters...
HOWEVER, there are BIG ways the BHR project can go wrong. There is no second American-flag version of the ship, and all of her eight sisters only flew French colors. There were some bigger possibly-related EIM's that the French Navy took into service as 64's, but I'm not sure how viable they are as a stretch.
What I *personally* would do if Roberto handed me the keys to the bus on this particular basic sculpt would be something like this:
1. Three SKU's of French Groignard 900-ton East Indiamen, at least one each under French Compagnie des Indes and French Navy flags.
1a. I would consider just doing three G900s, each having a Merchant and Militarized side with corresponding stats changes on the log, as another possible option to expand use of the basic sculpt.
2. I would do Bonhomme Richard at the same time as a Special Pack, with her enlarged bulwarks being added, and fill in the back side with Speculative stats for the ship as JPJ wanted to outfit her had he been able to round up enough guns. (The engineering changes he made seem to imply that he wanted to make her a 60-gun monster.)
HOWEVER, I'm not driving the bus. See WHY I say there's a lot that can go wrong and we don't like to make announcements until things are well underway and committed, with a good bead on what it'll take to see 'em through?
Good point well made Steve- looking at this period surely the Victory stands alone when it comes to fame, and the fact that she is still with us in all her glory only adds to that. Obviously the fact that she was Nelson's flagship has a lot to do with it. There can surely not be many more famous ship's captains than Horatio Nelson?
Very true also Chris. Nelson is up there with Buzz Aldrin, Winston Churchill, Julius Caesar, Alexander the great, etc etc. Legendary characters in their own lifetimes and forever onward to be sure.
Men who by their actions changed not only their own nations but the world as a whole.
Unfortunately, I have seen a trend toward placing everyone on the same pedestal in our culture, where people are declared brave or a hero, for example, when, traditionally, those words were reserved for people who did significant things for others in the face of extreme danger. Personally, I think it a loss when certain constructs or words lose their traditional meaning, their traditional import. Once lost, we might not have those categories to utilize in our thinking, valuing, or growth.
I think the nail was hit on the head with the name of the game. SoG Napoleonic Wars implies the nations involved in those wars and the USA just wasn't really. Personally, as an American, I don't feel left out of a game that is centered around a war that wasn't really ours. The other thing to consider is that this game follows in the footsteps of WoG and we can look to that game for a little inspiration. Certainly the US market is going strong (and I'm doing my damnedest to encourage it) and it would be smart to put out US ships eventually. The best way to do this is to do a set about a different war (like what they did with WoG, hence why I mentioned it a second ago). The war of 1812 might not be a bad idea, or even the Civil War. I would love to see a game with Civil War era ironclads in the mix. In a way, they might have shot themselves in the foot a little by calling it "Sails" of glory. "Seas" of glory would have opened up more avenues for future expansion as we could have even gone as far as WWII battleships. For what it's worth, I really love the Royal Navy at this time and find this particular war and the ships that fought in it fascinating. I am quite happy to sail my little British ships to victory unless I get stuck playing the French in which case I will be happy sailing those guys to victory.
I rather think you would find a lot more name recognition with John Paul Jones and the Bonhomme Richard than either the USS Yorktown or the Argo, at least on the American side of the lake.
The War of 1812 was fought in parallel with the last few years of the Napoleonic War, and, on the RN side, involved more or less the same ships, so it would be quite natural for a Napoleonic naval game to include the American ships of that period. As for the earlier periods, fair enough, except that Ares is of course already indicating their intention to take the game back at least to the American Revolutionary War.
I just looked at Ares homepage and they indicate that the "First Series" of Sails of Glory is set in the Napoleonic Age. Other series most likely will come before? I think their Age of Sail period goes back to 1650 if memory serves?
[QUOTE=NimitsTexan;49433]I rather think you would find a lot more name recognition with John Paul Jones and the Bonhomme Richard than either the USS Yorktown or the Argo, at least on the American side of the lake.[QUOTE]
Im shocked that the USS Yorktown is less famous in the US! She is effectively the US version of Victory in her acheivement in the most important naval battle of your history, and still in living memory of a remaining few veterans!
I agree with Eric, legendary is a word banded around too easily these days, and its meaning can get diluted.
The ships i mentioned will be remembered long from now because the books written of their achievements are classics, i dont think the BHR will ever attain that status worldwide and hasnt yet either.
Its a sad indictment of the US history education system if true that the Yorktown is not afforded the recognition she deserves in comparison to other ships of your history. Her performance at Midway and her Hollywood style punch drunk end could be likened to a Rocky movie final fight sequence. She truly is a legend deserving of future US generations veneration.
Steve, if you think lack of knowledge about Yorktown is an indictment, I shudder to think what you would say if you knew the extent of the lack of knowledge about most anything of U.S. history, let alone world history. What passes as education today is so far removed from what we had in grade and high school. I am only pushing 52, but in my lifetime, I have seen a dramatic shift. I teach at the college and graduate level, and it is amazing just how unprepared folks are for higher education, and how mis-informed they are about the world. I was a horrible student when I was younger, but I knew I was horrible; I was able to tell the difference between my performance and the performance of my classmates as well as what was being taught; I simply didn't care. Folks, today, think they deserve "A"s simply for registering for a course; the standards have changed.
Honestly, ole boy, even among those historically aware, Yorktown is probably not the most famous of the WWII carriers; her sisters Enterprise and Hornet get much more name recognition, and probably even the Sara and Lady Lex get more books written about them. You are the first person I have ever seen list it with Victory, Titanic, etc. I suppose in the end it is all subjective.
That said, I would argue that Jones/BHR's contribution to the American Revolutionary War effort (providing a great morale boost) was just as significant as was Yorktown's for WWII. War is, after all, all about morale. Least ways, back when writing and teaching about actual people and events in history (as opposed to "movements") was still done regularly, John Paul Jones/BHR were the subject of more than their share of books and well known by American school children. The "I have not yet begun to fight" attributed to Jones is only slightly less famous than Lawrence's now semi-official USN motto "Don't give up the ship."
I think perhaps here we are both reflecting the biases of our geography. The American Revolution (and by extension the story of the BHR) was understandably never as popular or inspiring in the UK as it was in the US.
I will not contest the sorry state of historical education in America, but I am not sure, from what I read on internet forums in general, that it is much better in Western Europe.
From a non US citizens perspective the Yorktown became the ship that quite possibly won Midway and thus turned the tide in the Pacific. Through this it helped shape a conflict between the two greatest navies of their day. Victory did like wise at Trafalgar with Nelson. That is why i would compare them in some respects. The BHR cannot claim such an accolade, nor can many ships in history. Your quite right about history being taught in GB at least, its a bloody shambles.
Us residents of blighty have possibly the richest and most diverse history of any nation yet.
So at school for our exams we studied the cuban missile crisis and Vietnam!!!
My son has just finished his first year of college and studied Stalin and the black american equality chase thru the last century!!!
To me this is utterly appalling in its lack of relevence to young children growing up in a country that has no direct connection to these subjects and which has so much of historical import to be lauded and learnt and be proud of.
I spoke to a friends daughter who is studying at college about the latest Afghanistan conflict, she at least knew of the Soviet defeat in said country.
However she was totally unaware that the British had been defeated there previously.
A TV show over here had two University students competing on it, they were given a map of the world with ten nations borders outlined on it.
They were then given ten nation names and told to put them in the correct places.
They placed China on Canada, Russia on Australia and most stunningly stupid of all the UK on New Zealand because... they had the map upside down!!! The mind boggles that you can get to University and not know where you live!