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While checking out the Gettysburg KS, this popped up on my local KS location highlighter for Madison, WI. I know Karl and the folks at The Last Square, but know nothing about this project. So, this is an fyi on another naval war gaming system that just recently went up on KS, not an endorsement, as this is new to me too.
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/...=home_location
Rule set looks interesting but 1/6000 scale ships. That's small.
They had a display up at NAVCON...they look nice, but are small. I played In Harms way at the store a few times. I know they have put a lot into the development. At this point I am firmly entrenched with Naval Thunder and my 1/2400(pre-dreads - WWI) and 1/1800(WWII) models.
Hopefully they have put more effort into the proof reading of the rules than in the KS page. For example, it would have been good if they'd spelt the names of the Prinz Eugen and Achillies properly, and noticed the dodgy sentencing, extra or missing words, etc. Not an issue to some I guess, but makes you wonder how much attention to detail they've given to their product.
The miniatures are rather nice. They are the old Figurehead range that Steve Royen in the UK created back in the 1990s. I was on the verge of selling up my 1/3000 collection and moving to the smaller scale when he suddenly sold the range to Noble in the US and all the prices went up significantly. Several friends built up extensive fleets before the sell-off. We played out Jutland at the National Maritime Museum on the 90th anniversary with every ship represented. It was an awesome sight, we had hundreds of visitors coming in to see it.
It's hard to beat Naval Thunder for surface gunnery actions! I've played a lot of rule sets, and it's the only one that doesn't quirck in some way or another. It's also d10 based which in my opinion is minimum for any modern wargame. Having said that, Bolt Action is d6, and it works, but IMHO it would have worked better with d10.
David I noticed the mis-spelling right off the bat also. I also would have made the video more game mechanics based. They showed a turn of movement but without explanation, it was like a guest watching a club game, and for the most part your being ignored. I would also introduce a backing level with just the rules. I don't want another ship collenction, and I certainly don't want a 1/6000 scale ship collection!
This might be a really good game, but they need to tell people why it's better than what they are currently playing.
I know Karl and the guys who made this. Great bunch and very focused on the game details. I have even played several times early on and previosly owned a starter set they use to sell in the store with the Demark Strait and River Plate ships. I have since sold it and all my 1/6000 scale as I have the WotC 1/1800 models for WWII and 1/2400 for everything else. Last thing I want is another scale.
It is a shame they did not put more into the Kickstarter page as I know they have been working for years to get this going. I also thought it very odd that they are pushing the 1/6000 Nobel/figurehead line, but the video shows 1/1200 models which they always play with in the store. Again, not well though out.
I fear their pricing is off. IMO they would be better off to go with a Wargames Vault version similar to NT. Right now you can get the entire NT colletion for $67. Sure a printed book is nice except when there are errors and/or requires an update. I think Victory at Sea has taught us this. How many years has it been since Mongoose promised a revised edition. When it comes to Rules any more I am thinking PDF is the way to go.
If the SoG KS page was a A+ this rates somewhere in the C- range which is unfortunate as would not mind taking a look at the rules again, but not at those prices.
I plan to stop by the store tonight and if Karl is there I might bring up some of this as I hate to see them fail. They are really taking a beating on TMP as well.
The backer levels jump from $28 to $75. $28 is mini's no rules, and $75 is some minis with rules. I sent them a message on KS and advised they add a level that is rules only (and made them aware of the mis-spellings). It looks like an interesting set of rules, but I would need more detail before I opted in. After playing Victory at Sea, I will never play a modern naval game that is base d6. It simply doesn't allow for adjustment, since a single die face is 16.6%. I hope they can add some info to their KS page that will help them fund. It's helpful that they really aren't asking for a lot of money.
I watched the video last night and read through the KS page. I think this is an example of the differences in skill sets. KS pages are marketing tools, and as such, need folks with marketing skills to develop them; not every chef can run a successful restaurant. If it wasn't for the fact that Jim mentioned he knew the folks, I would have been completely turned off in terms of investing. I still am unlikely to invest because I do not have sufficient info on the game, and I concur with David's comments on the hit to trustworthiness due to a lack of attention to detail. The mis-scaled ships in the video can be a bit problematic because folks might wonder why they are not issuing them.
I think they have time to retool their page, and I highly encourage you, Aaron, to encourage them to do so.
I have had similar experiences with game convention websites. Information is hard to find, at times, if posted at all. Fortunately, I have friends who attended the associated cons previously who provided help on how to register for events, etc.
I was surprised by the lack of pledge level for just rules. I was a bit confused when looking at the pledge levels as to what they were raising money for - minis, rules, or both.Quote:
Originally Posted by HMS Lydia
I received an answer back from Karl, and he says they will add a rules only backer level.
Okay, they just added a $50 rules only level.
Karl and his crew at The Last Square are very dedicated wargamers. Big supporters of Wings of Glory I might add. I hope they follow the advice Bob, Aaron and others might offer them as I'd like to see them have a successful KS campaign. I doubt I'll be opting in as one naval war game is enough to keep me occupied; time and space being significant factors in controlling a move into new games.
I stopped by and picked up some supplies for my Pre-dreads. I had a chance to talk to Karl and they are in the process of making some changes now.
They seem to be OK picking up feedback through TMP so I posted some thoughts there - basically their page tells me nothing useful as to how the rules actually work and why I'd like to invest what looks like a considerable amount of money in a rulebook. It could well be great but I'd like them to tell us why it is. And also what the status of the addenda are - what is in them, are they required to play, or are they optional? And if so, how optional?
Oh, and I concur with the comments regarding Victory at Sea. The new edition is on its way, but has been a long time coming. And I tried desparately to get them to move away from using a d6 (one of the reasons I'm not that heavily involved in the new edition). I have a new project with MGP that is d10 based and it is a struggle to keep it - for some unknown reason they think that sticking to a single die type that almost everyone has in their home will attract gamers, and that some players are "scared" of d10s.
What is funny is the use of d10 sold me on Naval Thunder among other things when I already owned VaS.Quote:
Originally Posted by David Manley
Mechanically, other than firing order, VaS and NT are very similar. I think the d10 and adjustments to gunnery are what makes NT the superior system. The only problem with NT is the largely abstracted aircraft and submarine rules.
I have yet to play an NT game were we use the air rules. Sub rules are easy tohouse rule when they are applicable.Quote:
Originally Posted by HMS Lydia
It is not an issue Pre-dread-WWI which I really like NT for these periods. The Majority of the WWII scenarios I have played are many of the historical scenarios from the rules where air was not an issue. Coming from WotC Was where air is a major factor I understand there are those that like to play with air. VaS has a workable system for this. My point has always been that air attacks during a surface battle seem very ahistorical to me to begin with.
I have never played the WWI or Pre-Dread NT games, nor the NT Pre-WWII games. I would agree that even in most WWII games, air and surface didn't occur similtaneously. An exception would be perhaps Leyte Gulf.
I've used NT for many of the cruiser actions around Guadalcanal. I have also played Denmark Straight and River Plate. Playing so much Bolt Action right now, I have temporarily laid my naval aside. Waiting for this to come out, not a lot of people doing AoS gaming right now. So this will be new. We have a local guy that runs GQ3 a lot. GQ is okay, I still prefer NT, personally.
I debating whether to send another message. As Aaron has already pointed out you get the entire NT bundle for less than $70. They created a pledge level for just the rules as requested. But the question has come up if the game can be played without the annexes (seperate books). It appears that there are ship stats for a certain amount of scenarios within the core rulebook. There is once agian, no way to back the annexes without taking delivery of miniatures. I'm tempted to back a dollar just so I can ask questions on the KS page.
By the way, I think their cover art is excellent.
If you look close there are options for the rules and fleet data cards only at the $50, $95, $130, $175 and $220 levels. Just not an option to get it all without minis. I did talk to them about considering a electronic version at a lower price point or at least doing the card packs as electronic instead of printed versions. Books are nice, but they just cost so much especially with a small print run. If there are any errors or updates you are stuck with a printed book as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by HMS Lydia
Part of the issue is it is just so confusing. I also encouraged them to simply call it Book 1(Basic Rules),Book 2(Pre Dread-WWI) and Book 3 (WWII) instead of all this andendum stuff which makes it extremely hard to figure out what you are getting.
Summary if you just want all of WWII you pledge at $175
If you want Pre-dreads through WWI only you pledge at $220
Unfortunately I do not see a combined option which should be about the $340 range.
IMO this is just too expensive compared to a comparable system like NT which gives it all to you in an electronic media which they occassionally update for $70. Granted you are getting hard cover books, but I think they could save a bunch if they went to electronic format for the data cards and kept the entire package under $200 which is still pricey.
I do wish them luck though.
Yeah, that's too expensive.