My Portland 50 Re-envisioned, and others...

This began as a rewrite of the Portland 50’s, but has segued into my rewrite of my fleet so far, based on my observations of the historic ships’ sizes, classes, and armaments. I realize that Ares probably did this too, but some of their decisions did not feel right to me.

It does not include rule changes I have made based on broadside gun sizes or ships not available from Ares.
My assumptions are that the range of cards in the maneuver decks, or how tight a ship can turn, is an aspect of hull length. A ship’s Veer Value is an aspect of its agility.

The list is from smallest to largest, ignoring the Waves, and limited to the ships which I have bought.

SGN 108 Sloops of War – No Change

SGN 103 Amazons – Burden from 2 to 3, switch Maneuver Deck C to A

SGN 101 Concordes – switch Maneuver Deck A to C to reflect greater speed of longer hull than Amazons

SGN 105 Hebes – Veer from 6 to 7 to reflect its frigate agility better (it’s more maneuverable than a Portland).

SGN 116 Indiamen – switch Maneuver Deck O to N to reflect slower and less maneuverable than a Hebe

SGN 110 Portlands – Veer from 7 to 6 because it’s a 2 decker, Broadside: 2-5-3, 2-5-3, 2-4-2, 2-3-2, 1-3-2, 1-2-2, 1-2-1, 1-1-1, 0-1-1, Crew: unchanged

SGN 109 Artesiens – Broadside: 3-5-4, 3-5-3, 2-4-3, 2-4-2, 2-3-2, 1-3-2, 1-2-2, 1-1-1, 0-1-1, Crew: unchanged

SGN 202 Constitution 1798 – Broadside: 4-5-4, 4-5-4, 3-5-3, 3-4-3, 2-3-2, 2-3-2, 2-2-2, 1-1-1, Crew: unchanged

SGN 202 Constitution 1812 – Veer from 5 to 6, switch Maneuver Deck L to N to reflect improvements in sail plan, Broadside: 4-5-4, 4-5-4, 3-5-3, 3-4-3, 2-3-2, 2-3-2, 2-2-2, 1-1-1 with optional carronade rule, Crew: unchanged

SGN 104 – Bellonas – No Change
SGN 102 Temeraires – No Change
SGN 106 – Royal Sovereigns – No Change
SGN 108 – Oceans – No Change

Hi Dobbs,

I really like these house rules and am considering adopting them myself. Since I purchased the game, I've wondered about the Amazon class ships being given a burden of 2, while the Concorde class has 3. Many of Ares' historical scenarios give an Amazon class ship a disadvantage against a Concorde or equivalent class ship, in addition to this disadvantage in burden. Based on the following links, it would seem that it should be the other way around!

Amazon class
Concorde class

If these figures are comparable, Amazons' burden is about 680, while the Concordes' have about 550. Though I guess one should also take into account the quality of wood and shipbuilding...

If corvettes were introduced, it seems appropriate that they would have a burden of 2 in the game, in between the sloops and the frigates.

I also noted that the Hébés frigates have a burden of around 700, similar to the Amazons' 680, though they get a burden of 4. The Portlands (50) have about 1000, similar to the Artesiens' (64) 1100. The Ardent, Intrepid and Inflexible (all 64 guns) lie around 1300. It is good that the Artesien are more similar to the Portlands than the other British 64-gun ships in the game in terms of number of hits they can take, if we assume that the game's burden should reflect the historical values. However, the British 64-gun ships can take the same number of hits as the 74 gun ships, which have a burden of around 1700.

That would seem to fit with general impressions and statements by Captains and crews.
British Frigates more sturdy than French. French quicker than British but more fragile.
Rob.

Thanks for the Rep, Andrew.

Have you seen my other posts on water current, and sailing tweaks? Also, we play a variation where the ships can be damaged on both sides.

Do tell more about the damage Dobbs. Is it just that ships which collide take damage weather they are on the same side or not, or have you some deeper hidden tweak to the rules?
Rob.

When I was introduced to SoG, I loved the card based movement system, and the chit damage combining hitting and damage. I was surprised how quickly ships got damaged, and how frequently one good hit could make a battle completely one sided. My wife suggested that it would add an additional tactical level as well as a ship's ability to survive damage if the ships took damage on either side independently.

My solution was that when a ship can takes hits from individual chits up to its Burden, they get expressed on the side being hit. On chits that exceed its Burden, the additional points from the chit are transferred through to the other side.

That's the basics. If you want more, let me know. Here's what a player sheet looks like for Terpsichore:

Attachment 37726

Here's Courageous:

Attachment 37727

There's a bit of extra information to process on those sheets, as I tweaked the way fire and flooding were done, and added a sail position option, but they could be used to play with the standard rules, to see what you think. Also, the crew chart is longer to reflect the ship's potential ability to absorb more damage.

Thanks for that Dobbs.
I now have several questions about the playing with these charts, which I will hold off on for the present. I do like the way you have laid it all out. It seems to correct a lot of the things I do not like about the current Ship mats.
Rob.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bligh

Thanks for that Dobbs.
I now have several questions about the playing with these charts, which I will hold off on for the present. I do like the way you have laid it all out. It seems to correct a lot of the things I do not like about the current Ship mats.
Rob.

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Ask me your questions, bridge keeper. I am not afraid.

I can see your marking dots for weakening of guns and masts. How do you decide exactly which part takes the hit, or do you just start at the top and work down the ship?
What does the box for supplies indicate and how do you decide how much water you have on board etc, or is this just for campaigns? Finally do you plastic wrap the picture and use a dry wipe pen to indicate status?
If so how easy is it to keep changing the marks as guns change status or sailing speed is altered?
at what size do you print your mats out?
Thank you for your patience in my questions, but I have found problems with the markers on my more simple mats.
Rob.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bligh

I can see your marking dots for weakening of guns and masts. How do you decide exactly which part takes the hit, or do you just start at the top and work down the ship?
What does the box for supplies indicate and how do you decide how much water you have on board etc, or is this just for campaigns? Finally do you plastic wrap the picture and use a dry wipe pen to indicate status?
If so how easy is it to keep changing the marks as guns change status or sailing speed is altered?
at what size do you print your mats out?
Thank you for your patience in my questions, but I have found problems with the markers on my more simple mats.
Rob.

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Basic damage is just like the original game, only mark from the top down instead of left to right. When a row has at least 1 point of damage, make a mark next to the broadside strength at that height to indicate that it is not available on that side. If both sides have damage to the same height, just cross out the appropriate broadside strength.

Supplies, water and all of the information in the lower left are for a campaign game I'm working on, so ignore for now.

I put the picture (ship chart) in a plastic sleeve and keep track of damage with a grease pencil (red - it's more dramatic). I print them on 8 and 1/2" x 11" sheets, so it takes up the full sheet.

I do sinking damage and fire differently. Here's an excerpt from the Special Damage section of my "Expanded Rules".

a) Sailors: A crew hit eliminates the leftmost intact column of crew/musketry.
b) Broken masts: Each time a broken mast chit is drawn, the player is required to change his following two maneuvers for single broken mast movement cards. If a player takes two mast hits in a single turn, he must still only play two broken mast movement cards before the crew clears the wreckage. After playing the second card, the player can proceed with playing normal maneuvers. Loss of the first row does not result in a potential speed reduction as the ship is jury-rigged. The loss of subsequent mast rows cannot be repaired, but the wreckage may be cleared and the ship’s maximum speed reduced by one for each mast row lost for the remainder of the game. A ship that has lost three rows must use the double mast lost cards to maneuver until the wreckage is cleared. A ship with no mast boxes left must strike its colors if the opponent positions his vessel outside the dismasted ship’s arc of fire and is still able to fire.
If a ship must use a red card while it is using the damaged mast cards for movement, the player draws a red card randomly.
c) Fire Damage: A fire damage hit is taken as the loss of hull hits equal to the ship’s Burden. The fire is extinguished next turn, but the damage cannot be repaired. The owning player may choose to distribute the individual points of damage on either side of the target ship. Each time a ship receives fire damage, a Fire special damage box is marked off. Any time a ship takes a fire damage hit after the last box has been marked off, it takes damage as usual, but the player must roll 1d6. On a roll of 5-6, the ship explodes and is destroyed.
d) Leak: A ship may take as many “Base” leak damage hits as half its Burden (round up). Subsequent leak hits are taken as Hull Damage equal to the ship’s Burden. The owning player may choose to distribute the individual points of damage on either side of the target ship.
e) Rudder Damage: When the first row of rudder damage is crossed off it decreases the ship’s veer value by one. When the second row of rudder hits is lost, the ship’s veer value is reduced by two and for two turns the ship must use the single broken mast cards to maneuver while the damage is jury rigged. Once repaired, the ship still has a -2 to its Veer rating. If a ship loses its third row of rudder hits, the ship must use the double broken mast cards to maneuver for the remainder of the game. A ship’s Veer Value cannot drop below 1.
f) Sail Damage: The first sail damage hit has no effect and is merely marked on the ship mat. On the second hit, the hit is indicated as a mast hit and the first sail damage mark is removed. In effect, a sail damage hit is half a mast hit, but without the use of broken mast cards. Further sail damage hits, after the first two, are treated the same way.

For sail changes, reloading, and general damage tweaking, every player is issued a half a paper towel for erasing.

Question for you, Rob. Does the rest of the world have metric paper sizes?

We are metric Dobbs but my printer gives me the option of old Imperial sizes as well. However, it is in fractions and inches just as you wrote it down. Gone are the iconic days of Quarto, Half Elephant, Double Elephant etc, which I was brought up on as a young draughtsman pre 1971.
The system you outline for damaged masts and sails almost mirrors the system that Capt Kiwi and i use for our friendly games. You have,however, gone a bit further with your ideas for leaks and explosions, and it goes without saying your superb work on gunnery.
I will put this appraisal before the Admiralty board, ie myself and Andy, for approval.
We are working on a system of firing by sections at present, so that using your fore or aft section of guns does not debar the firing of the remainder of the guns in the next move. I feel that this may well lead onto fore and aft guns being able to target separately at the same time, but this is something for the future.
Rob.

Great house rules Dobbs, love the ship mats. :thumbsup:

I noticed you give -1 damage for 12 pdrs. Is that -1 on damage chit number or -1 on the amount of chits drawn?

Do you have any other damage modifiers for weight of shot (+1 for 36 pdrs for example?)


Also on the Portland - Doesn't Ares also have a model for the later single deck version of these ships? Like the second Leander for example built in response to the US super frigates.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DeRuyter

Great house rules Dobbs, love the ship mats. :thumbsup:

I noticed you give -1 damage for 12 pdrs. Is that -1 on damage chit number or -1 on the amount of chits drawn?

Do you have any other damage modifiers for weight of shot (+1 for 36 pdrs for example?)

Also on the Portland - Doesn't Ares also have a model for the later single deck version of these ships? Like the second Leander for example built in response to the US super frigates.

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Thanks, Eric.

The -1 is on the numeric damage on the chit. I didn't feel that the bigger guns needed a modification to the chits. My thought was that an 18 pdr was the smallest penetrating, big ship gun, and the base gun. My assumption was that for larger guns Ares just increased the number of chits drawn for broadside damage. Much less record keeping, though statistically increasing the chance of mast damage.

Tell me more about cut down Portlands? I thought the second Leander was an improvement on the Pomone heavy frigate?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bligh

We are metric Dobbs but my printer gives me the option of old Imperial sizes as well. However, it is in fractions and inches just as you wrote it down. Gone are the iconic days of Quarto, Half Elephant, Double Elephant etc, which I was brought up on as a young draughtsman pre 1971.
The system you outline for damaged masts and sails almost mirrors the system that Capt Kiwi and i use for our friendly games. You have,however, gone a bit further with your ideas for leaks and explosions, and it goes without saying your superb work on gunnery.
I will put this appraisal before the Admiralty board, ie myself and Andy, for approval.
We are working on a system of firing by sections at present, so that using your fore or aft section of guns does not debar the firing of the remainder of the guns in the next move. I feel that this may well lead onto fore and aft guns being able to target separately at the same time, but this is something for the future.
Rob.

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It is something my fellow players have asked about, but I have not gone there. It is interesting to read about the Shannon vs. Chesapeake engagement, because the Shannon's captain had devised something like modern fire control, led from the quarterdeck. The gunners did not have to see their target to aim at all! But that was the exception.

I look forward to following your developments.

I know that one captain at least painted a white marker on the deck and each gun port had a notch cut out on the bulkhead done in such a way that the gunfire converged at a point when at optimum range. If the Captain wished to destroy a certai object such as a mast, he lined up the paint mark and all the guns fired simultaneously hoping to hit the target. I assume that normal fire was carried out by each crew doing their own
laying as per usual.:cannonboom: Well it worked on those floating barrels.:clap: I assume that the reason this was remarked upon was that it was unusual practice.
Rob.

Here's my ship charts for Defense and Genereux to round out the starter set collection:

Attachment 37774

Attachment 37773

If you give them a try or have any questions, let me know.

Thanks for those Dobbs.
One more question if I may.
When we add up damage we take the highest chits first which often put more than the burden in a box. Using your system do you do the same or actually count the points and allocate them singly to each area.
Rob.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bligh

Thanks for those Dobbs.
One more question if I may.
When we add up damage we take the highest chits first which often put more than the burden in a box. Using your system do you do the same or actually count the points and allocate them singly to each area.
Rob.

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A ship cannot take more than its Burden in hits on a single side. Extra points from any chit that exceeds the ship's Burden is transferred to the highest undamaged boxes on the opposite side. For instance, if a Burden 3 ship takes a hit from a Burden 5 chit on the starboard side, 3 hits are absorbed on starboard, and 2 go through to the port side. Of note, if there is only one box left on a row and your ship takes 3 hits, nothing changes mathematically if you mark off that one and then mark the next 2 on the row below (as compared to Ares' marking a whole row for a chit of Burden size or higher).

This actually leads to players not having to organize the chits highest to lowest, but we still do most of the time.

Oh, raking is a little different too, to reflect the stronger ships with bigger crews:

Page 25
Raking: Rakes are only conducted from the center broadside of the firing ship. To be a raking attack, a line from the center broadside red dot must stay within the firing arc and pass through both short ends of the target’s base, as well as passing over some portion of the model’s hull.

Raking Damage Allocation: Damage chits are allocated by arranging the chits from greatest to weakest. The number of zeroes is noted, and then they are returned to the bin, and that number of chits redrawn. Any further zeroes are kept.

Special Damage is allocated first. For mast and sail hits on the original draw (and in a stern rake, rudder hits) an additional “E” chit is drawn. An “E” hit indicates an additional point of damage. Also, for any indicated crew hits on the original draw, an additional “E” chit is drawn. Any hits indicate an additional crew hit. Hull damage is allocated by alternately marking the individual chits of hull damage on either side. A ship cannot take more than twice its Burden in hits on one side from a single chit, and twice its Burden on both sides from a single chit.

Thanks for the clarification Dobbs.
Rob.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dobbs

Tell me more about cut down Portlands? I thought the second Leander was an improvement on the Pomone heavy frigate?

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Actually now that I look at the ship packs I mistook the 1798 "Leander" (SNG110C) which is a French ship, for the much later spar decked HMS "Leander". :embarass:


Although it does bring up another question - which model would be best to represent those ships (Leander and Newcastle)? They are larger than the Hebe class models. Repaint a "Constitution" model maybe?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DeRuyter

Although it does bring up another question - which model would be best to represent those ships (Leander and Newcastle)? They are larger than the Hebe class models. Repaint a "Constitution" model maybe?

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I thought that might be what you where getting at. I think repaint a Constitution.

I'm not sure. The USS Constitution was exceptionally big for a frigate and the model is on the large side.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TexaS

I'm not sure. The USS Constitution was exceptionally big for a frigate and the model is on the large side.

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I haven't looked at stats for Newcastle and Leander, but didn't they have broadsides even larger than the American heavy frigates?

Leander. Portland Class 1779 146 ft. Rated 52.

330 crew.

Ld 22x 24 pdrs.
Ud 22x 12 pdrs.
Qd 6x 6 pdrs.
Fc 2x 6pdrs.


Leander 1813. 174 ft. Rated 60.

450 crew.

Ud 30x 24 pdrs.
Spar deck 26x 42 pdr Carronades.
Fc 4x 24 pdrs.


Newcastle. 176 ft 5 in. Rated 60.

450 Crew.

Ud 30x 24 pdrs.
Spar deck 24x 42 pdr Carronades.


Rob.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dobbs

Thanks for the Rep, Andrew.

Have you seen my other posts on water current, and sailing tweaks? Also, we play a variation where the ships can be damaged on both sides.

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I'm a bit late back to the party, but I saw the sailing tweaks, which I also found interesting. I noticed that you had blue markings for the schooners Ranger and Enterprise. What movement cards do you use for those? I like the water current cards too - I guess those could be used to represent the effect of strong winds as well? The damage to both sides is also an impressive improvement to the realism of the game. Since I'm still new to the game, I might gradually introduce these things as I get more familiar with it.

Dobbs' ship charts in post 19 are well worth taking a look at Andrew.
Rob.

Yes, I saw those... or at least the one for Terpsichore in an earlier post. It adds a level of detail to the game that I think I might not be ready for yet, but would certainly like to try out at some point in the future, depending on whom I'm playing.

You can always take just what you want from it Andrew.
I am mostly drawn toward the fire effect on the ships sides, but also the way sails and mast damage cause handling problems. None of that is very far removed from the present system. it just refines it a bit more.
Rob.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fabbe

I'm a bit late back to the party, but I saw the sailing tweaks, which I also found interesting. I noticed that you had blue markings for the schooners Ranger and Enterprise. What movement cards do you use for those? I like the water current cards too - I guess those could be used to represent the effect of strong winds as well? The damage to both sides is also an impressive improvement to the realism of the game. Since I'm still new to the game, I might gradually introduce these things as I get more familiar with it.

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The Blue arc on schooners is to represent that they are not good at running before the wind. If the schooner is in the Blue arc, the player uses the orange movement at the next wind speed down. If the schooner is moving at Backing Sails already, then the player moves the forward edge of the base to the back of the Full Sails orange.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fabbe

Yes, I saw those... or at least the one for Terpsichore in an earlier post. It adds a level of detail to the game that I think I might not be ready for yet, but would certainly like to try out at some point in the future, depending on whom I'm playing.

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My ship chart for Terspichore is in Post #6 of this thread. Courageuse is #7. Defense and Genereux are #19.

My idea with the Current Cards was to add a level of complexity to scenarios with land. Heck, using current cards and land, you don't even need an opponent. Just try and maneuver between a pair of islands with a current setting you.

I work on real boats for my day job, and learning how to incorporate current into your anticipated course is fascinating. I thought it would be fun to include it here.

Regarding strong winds, I am planning on uploading my Wind modifications soon. It's just that this is our busy season and don't have much time for SoG. Spring is warming up, and suddenly our customers are remembering that they own boats!

I look forward to seeing how your wind modifications work, when you get the time to upload them of course.

Dobbs, have you considered how your changes to burden, veer, manoeuvre cards and broadsides might affect the points values that Ares have provided? Adding your changes will affect a ship's performance. Other than Ares, does anyone know how the points values are calculated?

In playing scenarios, I sometimes like to balance out the points by adding bonuses/maluses to the ships. This feels especially appropriate in the historical scenarios where Terpsichore is up against a Concorde-class or Mahonesa frigate and the disadvantages are applied to Terpsichore!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dobbs

My ship chart for Terspichore is in Post #6 of this thread. Courageuse is #7. Defense and Genereux are #19.

My idea with the Current Cards was to add a level of complexity to scenarios with land. Heck, using current cards and land, you don't even need an opponent. Just try and maneuver between a pair of islands with a current setting you.

I work on real boats for my day job, and learning how to incorporate current into your anticipated course is fascinating. I thought it would be fun to include it here.

Regarding strong winds, I am planning on uploading my Wind modifications soon. It's just that this is our busy season and don't have much time for SoG. Spring is warming up, and suddenly our customers are remembering that they own boats!

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Sounds like you work at a boatyard near the Chesapeake Bay! My old sailing club just launched the boats for the season on the Delaware river.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DeRuyter

Sounds like you work at a boatyard near the Chesapeake Bay! My old sailing club just launched the boats for the season on the Delaware river.

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Would that be the Newcastle Sailing Club, Eric? If you sailed on the Delaware, you must have an appreciation for my Current cards!

My wife, Suzanne, and I are a mobile rigging business that service boats in any yard from the Patapsco River on the west shore north to the top of the Bay, then down the Eastern Shore to Fairlee Creek (where we were today). We spend the days fixing big plastic sailboats, and while I drive to work, I think about what to do with little plastic ships in the evening.

If you want to learn more about us, check out our website at waldenrigging.com.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fabbe

Dobbs, have you considered how your changes to burden, veer, manoeuvre cards and broadsides might affect the points values that Ares have provided? Adding your changes will affect a ship's performance. Other than Ares, does anyone know how the points values are calculated?

In playing scenarios, I sometimes like to balance out the points by adding bonuses/maluses to the ships. This feels especially appropriate in the historical scenarios where Terpsichore is up against a Concorde-class or Mahonesa frigate and the disadvantages are applied to Terpsichore!

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I have not made any efforts to adapt their point system, Andrew, and I am sure you are right. My changes would definitely change the Ares point values, but I don't know how.

I have to admit that I never use points systems either Dobbs.
I never yet read about a balanced battle in my life.
The enjoyment of winning against odds is always the sweeter, and if you lose you have an excuse.
Rob.