Is it time for a Two-ship Starter Set?
Since the price of the Starter Set containing four ships continues to rise, is it time to introduce a Two-ship Starter Set containing, say, two frigates, to attract new players into the game? Perhaps the ships included could come from a famous encounter.
That may well be a way of enticing new players into the game Dave.
I have always thought that whilst a Wings starter is probably just within the Budget of someone with money in his pocket at a show, many erstwhile enthusiasts have balked at the serious outlay required to start up in Sails. Your idea would certainly bridge the gap, even at the expense of us having to put up with yet another deferral of the next series of new releases. To you chaps with years left in you for gaming it may well be worth the trade off.
Rob.
Just thinking what is in the existing starter set that you could strip out (part from the two SOL models) to bring the size and cost down to make this viable. I guess a rulebook that covered only the basic rules would help as it would reduce the book size and also the number of chits and counters that were needed.
I like the idea.
Ensign Patch popped in at Dinner time to drop off a present from Cpt. Duff, and he also said it was a good idea.
Rob.
I also like the idea, but the overhead cost of launching something like this nay be more than Ares wants to take on at this time?
On the other hand if they had two ships projected for Wave 4 or 5 that would could fit as a 'duel' edition (like Bonhomme Richard vs. Serapis for instance) I'd jump right in.
"It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
–English Proverb
Maybe they should introduce duel sets? They could include a printout of the outcome of the historical duel.
I think that removing two 74's, their play mats and counters and reducing the size of the box might produce a price reduction of 35-40%. Since the full rules are available online I do not think that the rulebook needs to be cut down.
They could keep the rule book as it's expensive to make a new one and they could say the set only covers the basic rules. That lets them have less counter types. The damage counters should be the same but less. I don't know what fits proportional wise, but if they made Chesapeake vs Shannon about a fourth of the counters would be well enough I'd guess.
Keeping everything otherwise the same would mean beginners could buy this and then add a big starter and just add the new counters to the old ones without changing the balance.
As you chaps say there are many and varied ways of bringing the price of a starter set down with only a little retooling if Ares have the will to do it. I would have thought that with all the money that they already have invested in dies and press tools, it would be in their interest to keep sales alive by any means that they can.
Rob.
I suggested it, the problem Ares had was trying to strip down the rules enough to fit into a mini-booklet. If I had a copy-paste-able PDF I'd have already started trying to strip down the Basic Rules into a Duel Pack myself... :)
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
DB, Isn't this something you could edit using various free online .pdf editors?Originally Posted by Diamondback
http://www.aresgames.eu/9927
I have no experience with any of these editors, but they do look to be functional?
http://www.digitaltrends.com/computi...t-pdf-editors/
"It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
–English Proverb
Rob,
Why couldn't a two ship starter set use ships from a new wave as the starter set ships?
Bob
Rules are rough approximations of what you think I might do!
Jim, tried that. Ares has the file locked so I can't copy from it. :(
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
Reprinting the rulebook is an expensive proposition, so is the restructuring of the chits needed to play. Those could be left the same and reboxed with two new ships.
Another idea may be to produce duel sets of ships with the historical information and the link to the Ares site to get the rules. The chits could be purchased separately. This would have the added advantage of introducing new sailors to the other information offered by the company.
What do you think?
Bob
Rules are rough approximations of what you think I might do!
They could, but would need to be Frigates to abrogate the cost issues, and I suspect main line protagonists such as Britain, Spain, or France to entice the beginners.
Much as I personally like the suggestion of Bonhomme Richard vs. Serapis, they would not generate as many sales in spite of the large American membership. We who have many ships would applaud the more exotic but need to consider first and foremost the new players and their needs. Get 'em hooked and then expand their horizons.
Rob.
Damn! I thought they considered the rules to be 'open source' as in Creative Commons licensing? I must have been thinking about Catalyst Game Labs? I know Monsters in the Sky used it.
"It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
–English Proverb
Downloading the instructions, buying a pack of chits, and whatever two ships you want works out to around $40-50.
So let's brainstorm: what can we delete to strip down the Duel Pack rules?
- Eliminate Musketry and E-chits (keep numbers on the logs just for product compatibility).
- Eliminate Sail Settings, assume all ships are at Battle Sail (again, print Backing and Full on cards for compatibility).
- Eliminate Special Ammo and C/D-chits.
- Wind is constant speed and direction, eliminating Weather rules and chits except one small Wind Vane.
- Simplify all gun engagements to use A-chits even at B-range?
- All firing is Center Arc only (again, include Fore/Aft arcs and stats for full game compatibility).
Goal is to strip things down to a WGS Duel Pack size pamphlet at most, or just a single paper with "Download the Quick Start Rules and this Pack's Scenarios at [url]!" and all chits/rulers/etc. on a single board. (Then of course, offer a Completion Pack with the omitted two Mats and the rest of the Counter Set...)
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
I think it could make things too complicated to make a new level of the rules.
My suggestion would be to just use the simplest version that's already there.
I'd follow up your suggestion with getting rid of the chits completely. Either you hit or you don't; use dice or flip a coin to make the call. The big game at Gen Con a couple years ago used this and some of your other suggestions and it worked very well. The game was fast, furious and fun.
Two ships in a small box (including their mats, cards, etc.). A 3 fold brochure with basic instructions. A die or dice to determine hits/misses.
"It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
–English Proverb
The only problem with this is it then becomes the embryo for an entirely different game.
Rob.
Which could have been the fleet action game if that had been developed this year as was planned.
Not that we really thought that it would be...
+1 : players of the starter set need to be able to transition seamlessly to full-blown SGN
My point exactly Dave.
Rob.
Maybe that's the game they should have designed in the first place?
While I'm still invested in Sails of Glory it's become more of a 'simulation' for those who are still playing and much less the 'game' I was introduced to at Gen Con several years ago. High initial cost for the big box, plus rules that can be daunting for many may be what's keeping more players from buying into this niche game.
"It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
–English Proverb
You could be right there Jim.
We do tend to add a lot of frills and bells and whistles in our discussions here on the Anchorage, much the same as they do on the Drome.
I sometimes wonder if we remember what it was about the game that first drew us to it. The simplicity and ease of play.
Is it inevitable that having grasped the basics of a game, we then go on to read about our new found love in depth. Then try to emulate the nuances of the period which we did not previously know about in more and more detail until we finally strangle the joy of the game in detailed rules?
We then move on to the next game and do the same to that.
Rob.
This is part of why one of my goals in developing a Campaign System was to strip the game down to just its core essentials... a slimmed-down Quick Play ruleset would be a helpful development for that project whether precursor or parallel.
I like the "flip coin idea"--maybe A range flip one, B range two. Too far for Campaign, but for a basic to get rookies started might be good. Remember, start with basics and add a little at a time? There's a REASON you don't pop a flying virgin's cherry by strapping them into an F-22, ya know... lol
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
Hi All,
Not been around for sometime, Life!
As I have always said, the one and only way to get more folks interested would be a rule and playing aids set. Save money by not having the model ships. There is a large number of gamer's with ships that would spend money on rules, ship logs, chips etc.
I know of gamer's of other types wargames who buy new rules at the drop of a hat to try with their already got figures. They may buy into the model ships at a later date
Be safe
Rory
That's an idea... put together a RAP that has...
--Rulebook
--Mat Pack
--Counter Set
--coupon to reduce the price of buying four ships to the difference between RAP and Starter Set
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
There is also the shortage of supply problem.
This is true of almost every game I've ever gotten into. It's not a bad thing as long as you don't, "strangle the joy of the game in detailed rules" (an excellent statement, btw, that I will file away for future use).
"It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
–English Proverb
Sorry D.B. what is a RAP? I'm going to feel an idiot for asking. I just know I will!
Be safe
Rory
Just a guess, but could it be Rules and Product? Or in manufacturing parlance Revenue Acquisition Process.
Rob.
Rules & Accessories Pack,amigo. :) Just like the ones for the Wings lines...
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
Cheers DB.
Rob.
Simple when you know. Thanks D.B. I did not know they had made one for wings!
Be safe
Rory
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