Smallest plastic sailing ship?

[Kentop]

Here's a few pics about how small plastic sailing ships can get. I bought a game called "Letter of Marque". It provides about thirty plastic ships whose bases are only 1 inch long (about a third the length of SOG ships). The little ships have a lot of details like gun ports, deck houses, windows in the stern , a jolly boat amidships, and even flags on the topgallants and a standing rigging line from the mainmast to the gaff rigged spanker. They are obviously brigs. These things are incredibly sturdy. You could literally step on one and not break it. They are definitely paintable. Imagine a 1:3000 scale Niagra. If Fantasy Flight Games can make a ship this small this detailed and this sturdy, surely there's room for improvement in the SOG ships. Take a look:

[Lucky Jack]

Oh sorry, maybe this ships can show all functions of a real vessel, but it looks more great in SOG size.
These ships are no options for our game, because we play one in one or little more games, and not every time the battle of Trafalgar.
But thanks for your hint.

[Gunner]

Those look like the perfect size to use in place of chits for GMT's Flying colors. Perfect for Trafalgar.

[Diamondback]

Between present techniques and present rules... well, I actually raised the question with Rob at Ares and he thinks the lower limit is a French Palinure-class brig-corvette at 1mm shorter than a Swan. (I had mentioned Palinure because it's statistically very similar to a Cruizer class--well, a little later so maybe a better foil to the newer brigs of the War of 1812, but...)

[David Manley]

I really don't know why that is the case. I've been speaking to other plastics manufacturers and they reckon just about anything would work, even down to ships boats and gunboats.

[Diamondback]

David, I'm inclined to agree--it might take new construction techniques, but I'd bet that if the motivation, market and rules support were there even a pack of armed rowboats on a base could be done. (Heck, I've all but spoon-fed HOW to do it: one-piece mold using a modified base insert, then just paint the sections that represent each individual boat.)

If I had to guess, I'd say they're playing cautious right now--they got burned with the mast problem on Wave 2, and are gonna be kinda shy about any other real big ventures outside "terra firma" for a bit because of it, or at least that's my suspicion. Maybe even a "wait and see" because of the drubbing from the critics; Roberto once observed something re my long-range exercises to the effect of "let's wait and see how things go with Victory, Constitution and the Wave 1 reprint before we discuss any future Special Packs or reprints"--my guess is that how V&C do will decide if Santissima Trinidad or any other future SP's happen, and similarly Wave 1A+ and Wave 3 sales will determine if there's a Wave 4 or any new reprint waves.

AND with the talk about possibly having to THROTTLE DOWN on everything they've got in the pipeline penciled for 2015 between WGF, WGS and SGN to make sure they don't overtax customer wallets...

[Coog]

I don't think we will see anything smaller than the Wave 3 50-gun for a while. Ares seems to have committed to large fleet action SOLs for the time. Wave 3, at best, won't be available until well into 2015. That will put Wave 4 on into 2016 or later. I imagine Wave 4 will keep with the trend and probably add something like a British 64, French and British 80s along with another French or Spanish SOL. After that we will have to see if Ares considers SOG profitable and popular enough to continue.

[Nightmoss]

David, I'm inclined to agree--it might take new construction techniques, but I'd bet that if the motivation, market and rules support were there even a pack of armed rowboats on a base could be done. (Heck, I've all but spoon-fed HOW to do it: one-piece mold using a modified base insert, then just paint the sections that represent each individual boat.)

If I had to guess, I'd say they're playing cautious right now--they got burned with the mast problem on Wave 2, and are gonna be kinda shy about any other real big ventures outside "terra firma" for a bit because of it, or at least that's my suspicion. Maybe even a "wait and see" because of the drubbing from the critics; Roberto once observed something re my long-range exercises to the effect of "let's wait and see how things go with Victory, Constitution and the Wave 1 reprint before we discuss any future Special Packs or reprints"--my guess is that how V&C do will decide if Santissima Trinidad or any other future SP's happen, and similarly Wave 1A+ and Wave 3 sales will determine if there's a Wave 4 or any new reprint waves.

AND with the talk about possibly having to THROTTLE DOWN on everything they've got in the pipeline penciled for 2015 between WGF, WGS and SGN to make sure they don't overtax customer wallets...

I don't think you have to guess at all. Problems with the Wave 2 masts cost Ares dearly, not only in dollars lost to replacement, etc., but in buyer reaction to the entire issue, plus the long wait for things to get back to normal.

I do think that the Constitution and Victory will be very profitable for them, IF they have enough on hand to satisfy demand?! I only need one HMS Victory, but you can be sure I'll be purchasing more that one USS Constitution to fill in for the lack of US ship representation. I'll want my 'Six Frigates' and maybe more.

Reprints aren't going to be as attractive to existing players, unless there's something substantial enough to differentiate them from what's already available? New players can be brought in on those, maybe. And yes, I can see a throttle down coming, especially as they seem to be focused on releasing new games that I personally have no interest in (Galaxy, Conan, Dino Race!?).

[Gunner]

It's not so much the reprints, but the ship and base cards along with ship logs that would interest me. Even the ships out there now could be used with cards made for other countries.

I doubt if Ares will ever make them but, maybe one of our photo shop literate members (I was told that I couldn't draw a straight line with a ruler) would start some photo files. And yes I know that would open up a can of worms regarding stats. That could be open for discussion.

[Coog]

It's not so much the reprints, but the ship and base cards along with ship logs that would interest me. Even the ships out there now could be used with cards made for other countries.

I doubt if Ares will ever make them but, maybe one of our photo shop literate members (I was told that I couldn't draw a straight line with a ruler) would start some photo files. And yes I know that would open up a can of worms regarding stats. That could be open for discussion.

I'm hoping we have some more cards made for American ships based on the thread I started a while back. That would provide for some hypothetical Quasi-War battles with the United States fighting the French and even Spain who was allied with France at the time. I've been reading up on the period and their are a lot of possibilities. USS Essex, better known for its War of 1812 voyage into the Pacific, traveled around Africa to Batavia in the Dutch East Indies during the Quasi-War.

[Diamondback]

Jim, I've seen the list of everything they have penciled for WGF, WGS and SGN for 2015, and trust me, those three lines ALONE are a very ambitious list--my gut is there's no way in hell some things don't get pushed back into '16, though that's probably more on WGF and WGS, since SGN can't AFFORD to be slowed down much more.

[Gunner]

SGN can't AFFORD to be slowed down much more.

Amen.

[Kentop]

Here ya go, Gunner

[Gunner]

Bless your heart Ken. But I might pester you for more.
Going to a fast draw competition in Tombstone, Jan. 10th, 2015 and will gladly stand for your drinks.(after the shoot naturally)

[Diamondback]

I HOPE that's a Photoshop, not an official image... ALL records I can find indicate Bahama was built as one of two San Pedro Alcantara 64's and then upgraded to a 74. I know the Ildefonsos about as well as any non-Spanish-speaker without access to primary material can, and Bahama was NOT one of the twelve Ildefonsos...

The English Wikipedia page on Spanish SOL's Freaking BLOWS, and the Spansih-language page takes a little work to wade through.

[Kentop]

Diamondback, I noticed that the Bahama was commissioned in 1784, while the San Ildefonso was commissioned in 1785. I just picked a random Spanish ship on wiki that had a pic of the ship I could use. Just about every site contradicts every other site on this ship. But I was just screwing around with it anyway. I started with my hi res scan of a ship card and created a blank. Then I tried matching the font ARES used. I think that they used Adobe Bauer Bodoni Condensed. I don't have that particular version so I substituted a free font. The 7 is wrong in the font I used. The 7 on the card is from the 1926 version of Bauer's Bodoni. I will snoop around for the Adobe TT font and make the card more authentic looking. Pencil me in on the gunslinging contest. I'll know if I can make in sometime in December.
Here's my blank:

[Diamondback]

Just trying to note something for the record... in discussing Wave 3 plans, there were MANY arguments about which Spanish 74's were going to be included--I'm not at liberty to name names yet but I will observe that some of their choices were made over my protests.

[Nightmoss]

Just trying to note something for the record... in discussing Wave 3 plans, there were MANY arguments about which Spanish 74's were going to be included--I'm not at liberty to name names yet but I will observe that some of their choices were made over my protests.

Interesting. I wont ask for the ship names, but I am curious if the decision(s) came before or after they brought the scenario designer contest winner on board as a consultant?

[Nightmoss]

Thanks for the blank card scan Ken. The ones I made were not as good I think. Will try to play around with this when I get a chance. I agree that Ares is using some Bodoni font, but which one I've not been able to track down.

I usually start with this site to try and identify fonts? http://www.identifont.com/

[Kentop]

It's definitely Adobe Bauer Bodoni Standard Bold Condensed. Here's a blank base card to play with. I can put any flag you want in it.

[Diamondback]

Jim, a little before actually--and as noted previously, once the names are announced I have a story to tell about raising a ruckus to get a Ship That Never Was culled from the list.

[Kentop]

Here comes a blank ship's log. If anybody wants custom cards, I would be happy to create the artwork and send it to you so you can print it out.

[Nightmoss]

It's definitely Adobe Bauer Bodoni Standard Bold Condensed. Here's a blank base card to play with. I can put any flag you want in it.

Here comes a blank ship's log. If anybody wants custom cards, I would be happy to create the artwork and send it to you so you can print it out.

Thanks for these! I've actually started another kitbash project that will require ship and base cards as well as a log for a US ship that had a rather unimpressive career.

[Nightmoss]

Jim, a little before actually--and as noted previously, once the names are announced I have a story to tell about raising a ruckus to get a Ship That Never Was culled from the list.

Now I'm intrigued. I'm sure I'll enjoy the story when you can relate it.

[Kentop]

Just sayin'

[David Manley]

[Nightmoss]

Nice!

[Diamondback]

ROFLMAO!

[Coog]

Just sayin'

What would happen if a Man-of-War spotted this vessel during the Napoleonic Era?

French Man-of-War - Head the other direction under full sail

Spanish Man-of-War - Immediately strike the colors

American Man-of-War - Hail the vessel and attempt to issue her a Letter of Marque

British Man-of-War - Board the vessel and impress the crewman

[Kentop]

What would happen if a Man-of-War spotted this vessel during the Napoleonic Era?

French Man-of-War - Head the other direction under full sail

Spanish Man-of-War - Immediately strike the colors

American Man-of-War - Hail the vessel and attempt to issue her a Letter of Marque

British Man-of-War - Board the vessel and impress the crewman

Dutch Man-of-War - Immediately heel over and sink in 20 ft of water.

[Gunner]

Dutch Man-of-War - Immediately heel over and sink in 20 ft of water.

Turk Man-of war- You don't want to know.

[Kentop]

Turk Man-of war- You don't want to know.

Turk Man-of-war Converts guy in rowboat to Islam, and then enslaves him and takes his rowboat as a prize.

[Gunner]

Turk Man-of-war Converts guy in rowboat to Islam, and then enslaves him and takes his rowboat as a prize.

And that was the censored version.

[Kentop]

And that was the censored version.

The Ottoman empire must have been a truly terrible thing to behold. Everything bigots say about muslims is based on what the Ottoman Shieks did. Turkey today is the most forward thinking advanced country in the middle east. Women got the right to vote in Turkey in 1930. Expect to see a woman president soon. Turkey fought on our side in WWII. They are currently pissed off at us because of the Iraq war started by a president of ours who shall remain nameless.

[Gunner]

I also believe Turkey is a modern thinking country. But what most people think of muslims today is not based on Turks of old but on the sick terrorist muslim extremists of today. Not many weeks go by that I don't think of 9/11.

[Kentop]

Religion doesn't have a whole lot to do with it. It's mainly nationalistic and tribal divisions that drive the craziness. Kurds, Turks, Iraqis, and Syrians are all muslims and they all hate each other in the same way Catholic Bolivians, Argentinians, Central Americans and Mexicans hate each other. Don't blame it on their religious beliefs.

[Gunner]

I was getting ready to have my turn on this conversation when it dawned on me this is exactly the reason talking religion/politics is frowned upon on this site.

So I'll end it by saying lets stay friends and get back to the "Smallest plastic sailing ships". I ordered two boxes from MM to use for larger scale board game battles.
Thanks for the heads up on these.

[Berthier]

Turkey fought on our side in WWII.

Turkey halted its sales to Germany in April, 1944 and broke off relations in August. In February, 1945, after the Allies made its invitation to the inaugural meeting of the United Nations (along with the invitations of several other nations) conditional on full belligerency, Turkey declared war on the Axis powers, but no Turkish troops ever saw combat.

Hmm, not sure that really counts as "fighting on our side"

[Kentop]

Turkey halted its sales to Germany in April, 1944 and broke off relations in August. In February, 1945, after the Allies made its invitation to the inaugural meeting of the United Nations (along with the invitations of several other nations) conditional on full belligerency, Turkey declared war on the Axis powers, but no Turkish troops ever saw combat.

Hmm, not sure that really counts as "fighting on our side"

That's really simplistic. Turkey remained neutral until 1945, which greatly benefited the Allies. They sent pilots to train with the RAF all during the war. Their president met secretly with both Churchill and Roosevelt but not Hitler. No german troops were ever allowed to enter Turkey, even when Iraq fell to a german engineered coup d'état. As far as talking religion, only Gunner is doing that. I'm arguing that religion really has nothing to do with 9/11 or the current mess we created in the middle east. Both Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein were allies when Afghanistan was being invaded by the Russians. Their religion had nothing to do with which side they were on.

[Gunner]

You're right Ken. Those poor misunderstood people. And us horrible warmongers.

[Berthier]

There is no doubt that Turkey's neutrality was of benefit to the Allies, but benefit through inaction doesn't necessarily constitute alliance and may just represent fence sitting and trying to keep out of the way of the big boys. Turkey had much to loose if it got entangled in the war - Germany on one front. Russia on another and the Western Allies to their south left them vulnerable whichever side they chose and their military strength was hardly formidable. Their geographic position made them both desirable as an Ally to either side but vulnerable at the same time. Dialogue with the Allied leaders and their late declaration of war seems more realpolitik than alliance to me, but we can agree to disagree.

[Kentop]

Gunner, stop bringing politics and religion into it. I was talking about what a turkish ship during the age of sail would do and I was even kidding about that. It has nothing to do with 9/11, religious fanatics, insurgents, ISIS or anything else. Lighten up. As far as Turkey goes, they signed that non aggression pact in 1941. The US and Britain did everything they could to make sure Turkey didn't violate the pact. It was important to the allies...a lot more important than Turkey's outdated and under manned armed services. Germany would have rolled through them like they did everyone else, but Turkey insisted on maintaining the pact and, more importantly, Germany complied. I'm sorry I let you guys pull me off topic. The topic was about making jokes on various nation's navies back in the day. let it go, people.

[David Manley]

+1

[Gunner]

Ken, every time I stop, you open your mouth again. Who started up again today??
Let's call a truce.

[Kentop]

Ken, every time I stop, you open your mouth again. Who started up again today??
Let's call a truce.

Sorry, I didn't realize that you wanted to have the last word. I'll know better next time.

[7eat51]

My Friends, there is much good in this thread. Let's sail back on that course.

Kenneth (or do you prefer Ken?), thank you for sharing. Those ships do look nice; I was introduced to Tumbling Dice 1:4800 through this site, and was amazed how nice they look for being so small. What do you think of the game?

I am finding that our circle is becoming more open to playing different kinds of games, but games with minis, as opposed to hex-and-chit, are the preferred medium. Could it be age? So I am now looking for such games, e.g. Ikusa, some of the A&A boardgames, etc. I am about to jump into Memoir 44. What I like about these games is that most folks I play with are not war gamers, but are open to trying these types of lighter military-themed games.

For solo play, though, I hope to never abandon hex-and-chit. I am currently assembling the Lock 'n Load series, and, this week, just started purchasing the Combat Commander series - something about WWII tactical - must watch Combat this winter.

[Kentop]

I cut my teeth on AValon Hill, SPI and a bunch of others back in the day. And I still have.a few collecting dust. I can send you a list if you're interested in any of them. At the last gaming convention, I watched a memoir game recreate the entire D-Day invasion with maps covering three tables and six teams playing simultaneously. In the game, you are a commander receiving orders from a deck of cards like "Advance your rangers on the left and engage the nearest enemy." You roll a special die that determines damage. It's fun, fast and simple. It's more batallion level than squad level. My WWII favorites were Africa corps and Panzerblitz. Tank battles are really well simulated. Ignoring the horrible impliications of representing NAZIs, I would have loved to have been an actual Tiger tank commander.

[Nightmoss]

My Friends, there is much good in this thread. Let's sail back on that course.

Kenneth (or do you prefer Ken?), thank you for sharing. Those ships do look nice; I was introduced to Tumbling Dice 1:4800 through this site, and was amazed how nice they look for being so small. What do you think of the game?

I am finding that our circle is becoming more open to playing different kinds of games, but games with minis, as opposed to hex-and-chit, are the preferred medium. Could it be age? So I am now looking for such games, e.g. Ikusa, some of the A&A boardgames, etc. I am about to jump into Memoir 44. What I like about these games is that most folks I play with are not war gamers, but are open to trying these types of lighter military-themed games.

For solo play, though, I hope to never abandon hex-and-chit. I am currently assembling the Lock 'n Load series, and, this week, just started purchasing the Combat Commander series - something about WWII tactical - must watch Combat this winter.

Not to sidetrack the Sails discussion, but did you ever get your copy of the Conflict of Heroes solo edition to Awakening the Bear? Supposedly promised for September it still doesn't look like it's available on their website?

[7eat51]

Kenneth, let's exchange lists of dust collectors. I have some that will never hit the table again, and I would love to see them in the hands of someone who will use them.

The '70s was a wonderful period for wargaming with AH and SPI - fond memories. I think I have benefited from playing wargames in grade school regarding the ability to think. We were talking about this the other day. These games facilitate different ways of thinking - strategic and longer term, as well as tactical and immediate. Additionally, all the history they provide is wonderful. At an older age, I now think about a broader set of concerns when playing wargames - not completely detached from the human element. I am also reading military history through a more comprehensive lens.

I know what you mean about German military. I always found German equipment and uniforms to be aesthetically beautiful as well as well designed. German engineering is hard to beat. I think WWII, in general, was a period in which military-related items reached their zenith for me, personally. Though we're talking about something highly destructive - war, it was a period that had style. I am not sure how else to put it. In saying style, too, I am not trying to denigrate the suffering felt by millions. In fact, I once got rid of all my wargames because of the tension felt in playing games about war. It has only been the past few years that I have returned to gaming. That being said, WWII will always be my favorite period, especially the Western European theatre.

How do you like Letter of Marque?

[7eat51]

Not to sidetrack the Sails discussion, but did you ever get your copy of the Conflict of Heroes solo edition to Awakening the Bear? Supposedly promised for September it still doesn't look like it's available on their website?

Still waiting on that and the next expansion. I realized the other day that I am building a collection of WWII tactical games, not doing so consciously or deliberatively. I was a bit surprised. What I am looking forward to is the different playing experiences. As I read reviews on BGG, the different systems all seem to offer something unique, even if focused on the same genre. I am also realizing the need to cull through the collection. I hate having things collect dust when they could be used by others. Which reminds me, I have some leisure suits from the '70s if anyone needs them.