Pics of the Wave 2 ships.
http://www.aresgames.eu/games/sails-...ory-ship-packs
Latest news on Wave 2
Pics of the Wave 2 ships.
http://www.aresgames.eu/games/sails-...ory-ship-packs
Last edited by The Royal Hajj; 01-28-2014 at 12:15. Reason: Changing it to Wave 2 per Ares naming convention.
Hmm, if the images are to be believed, then
Hebes have burden 4 (!?)
First Rates have burden 6
This means the 50+ gun "small SOLs" will presumably all be burden 5 (?), second rates could go either toward 6 or 5, and really big 44+ gun frigates will definitely be burden 4
the sloops are burden 1. They look tiny
Veer on the sloop is 8 so in that way no better than Terpsichore. On the Hebes it's 6, so just like on burden this has filled all the available space between the 36-gun frigates and the 74 SOLs. On the British first rates veer is 4 and on the big French first rates it's all the way down to 3 (!)
Each class has its own new deck of maneuver cards
It's hard to make out the angles, but the sloops can go way closer to the wind than anything else in the game
If I read the blurbs correctly that means 24 new ships when you also include the flip side of each card! That's a lot ships!
Hopefully they have left some wiggle room for schooners and other fore and aft rigged vessels because that is where you see the largest difference in sailing angles.Originally Posted by fredmiracle
Also I note that the Ocean class 1st rates is just about the length of the base! Will the Santissima Trinidad even fit? Could be close!
2 part ship
I'm probably going to keep my KS order for Victory and Constitution.
Then I need to figure out how to get some Wave 2 ships.
It appears that they will make them available for Kickstarter backers to buy, even if they keep their existing V/C orders as-is (do other people interpret it that way?)
They've made noises like they will make it a good deal, and that it will be intended to help smooth some of the troubled waters.
But how credible is that? The only carrot that I can see that they can offer KS backers is a great price. Will they really set a price below the price online retailers sell them for? Given all we've seen over the last few months, I'm pretty skeptical that the KS route will make sense, and a bit confused by how they seem to be positioning it. What do people think?
I guess I'm fortunate in that I really don't care much for the fights with squadrons of the larger ships and won't get anything above the 74's, and not many of them. I will be getting a few of the Hebe frigates since the model is good for many classes of frigates, both French and British, for a few decades. I'm not sure if I will be getting any of the Swan class sloops. Although I really want sloops, I had something in mind that was more in the Napoleonic period, like the Cormorant-class sloop, than the Swan-class of the Revolutionary period. However, Ares will be getting quite a bit of my money on the WGF series 7, one of the best collections of aircraft they have had.
Last edited by Coog; 01-27-2014 at 12:44.
Heaven help completists
Someone will correct me if I'm totally wrong, but as I recall the Ocean class 1st rates were as large as, or larger, than the Santisima Trinidad. Being that the ST is one of my favorite ships I know the size issue came up in another post. We should be fine with the current bases.
Besides, who know if/when they'll actually do any Spanish with so much British and French material to work with?
P.S. For what it's worth check out my avatar. Those are the Langton versions of the Ocean and Santisima Trinidad in 1/1200 scale, of course.
When I saw that they were doing 3 British and 3 French first rates, I thought: here's my out from the completionist merry go round. One of each is more than enough.Heaven help completists
And once there are *some* things I don't have, surely it will be easier to not-buy others, right?
I'm going to stick with it...
I'm going to stick with it...
I'm going to stick with it...
You know what they say is the best way to resist temptation. . .just give in to it.
Yes please. I want to see schooners and cutters!
A fast, Baltimore built topsail schooner for privateering.
They may not be able to compete on direct price with e-tail, but there has been some discussion about possibly throwing in some degree of value-added goodies. (I had suggested maybe offering an "order the full set and get the mats free" deal...)
Some solid choices, some things I have reservations about. (I would've chosen the two 1745 Establishment 100's rather than Ville de Paris and Hibernia as "Side B's", and a Cruizer brig-sloop instead of a Swan to keep the focus on the Napoleonic Wars--there weren't many Swans left by the time Boney came along IIRC.) But I'm still in... and I'd expect that this is as close as we're ever going to get to a VdP/Hibernia sculpt.
I'll probably pick up one of everything. I don't know my interests in years to come, so I don't want to be in a position of regret. My primary interests are the War of 1812 and the U.S. frigates, but I have held off in the past to only later buy at higher prices via ebay, etc.
Like you my primary interest is the War of 1812. But I do also like the other battles of the Napoleonic Era, that beginning roughly with Napoleon Bonaparte's coup d'état, overthrowing the Directory, establishing the French Consulate, and ends during the Hundred Days and his defeat at the Battle of Waterloo (9 November 1799 – 28 June 1815). I just don't have that much interest in the ships or events of the era before that. And its not just that I am interested in the United States Navy as I don't have much interest in the American ships and battles of the Revolutionary War either. I just wish when Ares launched Sails of Glory Napoleonic, they would have stuck to Napoleonic.
Still plan on doubletapping everything... and while I applaud the IDEA of expanding to the Revolutionary era, I question the timing. But, now that the cat's out of the bag, I think we can see why I promised something exciting... (L'Orient at the Nile? Like the motivational poster with a Barrett M82A1 says, "Me want *BIG* BOOM...")
I finally read the entire wave 2 announcement from Ares, with all the ships announced, including the flip side cards. Can someone tell me if the HMS Victory and USS Constitution 'special edition' ships will also have flip side variants of other ships, or just variants of their respective selves at different times in their careers?
With '6' British 1st rates listed for Wave 2, I'm wondering what could be on the flip side for the HMS Victory? The USS Constitution would probably not be in the same category with a limited, but easier, selection to choose from? Thanks!
Jim, I could easily see either of the two 1745 Establishment 100's, Victory's direct ancestors, or a variant armament. (Remember, I've found like six different load-outs...) Personally, I'm hoping the Specials just include one "name" at different times in careers, something additional to highlight that these ships are special, unique and worth the extra price tag that's going to be attached.
That way, we maybe get the 1745 Establishments as Wave 2-B "Side A's", with the two 1810 Boyne 98's (Victory's immediate descendants) as their Side B counterparts. :)
I did say I would be getting models for both sides of the cards, just not sure now if my wallet can take another 24 ships.
It may mean just one each of the first rates.... Yer reight who am I kidding.... Must resist , must resist
Going to get expensive! I wish they'd start getting a bit more detail in the models. My thought is that if GHQ can put small groves in their 1/1200 ships for deck planking, why can't Ares do it for 1/1000 scale ships?
<- looks at the first-rate, and tries to *not* hum "The Imperial March"...
Burden 4 will probably be a pretty fun ship size to play because of the way the numbers on the damage chits fall.
Thanks DB for the reply. I'm with you on the HMS Victory 'special' just having one 'name' but at different times of its career. I also like the other options you've suggested.
I know it's pretty crazy to be getting hyped about new ships when I've hardly touched the ones just released, but there's just something special about the 1st rates I'm really looking forward to.
I think it would be enjoyable and informative to play the naval side, chronologically, of Bonaparte's career, at least in broad terms. I think an individual who nothing about AoS would come away from such a campaign, not only informed, but with a feel for the ships and fighting at sea during that period. With WGF, I want to work through the whole war this way, bringing into play the planes as they made their way to the front. I have tasted that a little in this segment of OTT, and it has been very cool.
As has been said elsewhere here, building the arsenal of one conflict, including ships of all sizes, would have been quite useful. Who knows about commercial success, though. I would hate to be the one at Ares that pulls the trigger on each release.
I had a pretty strong impression that this was the plan--that "specials" would have both sides representing the same ship at different time periods. Also that the box would include some special "captain & crew" type cards intended for that ship as well
Actually, we've already got one 1745 Est 100 as a Side B, so I wouldn't rule out the other being with Victory.
The 1745 Establishment line, as extended by Ares:
-1756 Royal George (Allin, first iteration): 1756 Royal George, 1762 Britannia
-1765 Victory (Slade, revised): one-off
-1786 Royal Sovereign (Williams, further revised): one-off
-1788 Umpire (Hunt, next revision): 1788 Royal George, 1790 Queen Charlotte
*-1795 Ville de Paris (Henslow, clean sheet): one-off
*-1804 Hibernia (Henslow, Ville de Paris plus 11' stretch midships): one-off
-1810 Umpire upgun (Hunt, improved Umpire): 1810 Queen Charlotte
-1810 Boyne 98 (Victory with downgraded armament, all three leter upgunned to 104): 1810 Boyne, 1811 Union
*Ares extensions I'm not 100% on, ships with Wave 2 cards are bold
This leaves us 1756 Royal George, 1810 Queen Charlotte, and 98's 1810 Boyne and 1811 Union for Wave 2-B. I would pair each as one First Rate A-card, with a 98 B-card, keeping Royal Sovereign/Britannia as the carry-over pair since those two were the other First Rates at Trafalgar.
Last edited by Diamondback; 01-27-2014 at 20:16.
That is correct.
The prices of the ships in the real KS were more than what e-tail stores were going to be selling them at. I expect the same for Wave 2. They will be cheaper than buying them at full retails at a FLGS, but more expensive then buying them online. If they include any extras with them, that is what will really make them worth while. Other wise, it's better to just buy them from the AA store
Veer ratings are not the only tool they have for making the ships sail differently. While two different types of ships can have the same Veer rating, the maneuvers on the card as well as the attitude zones on the base can make a huge difference on how the ships sails.
I just didn't want to be seen as the, "Thread Pirate Roberts" and get too far off topic.
I'm really excited...and scared...for the announcement.
There are several ships in there that I'd really like and I'm just not sure how the finances will fall when the time comes. I'm SO glad they gave us this detail early on so we have time to start stashing coins.
Once concern is that historically many of these First Rates were involved in actions that included multiple other ships. We already are getting a feeling that controlling more than one or two ships at a time with full rules is going to be a chore, so in order to play an historical engagement with First Rates you're going to probably need more than a 1:1 game. Unless of course you just say the First Rates battle is just being played out in a vacuum with the rest of the engagement taking place around them but not directly impacting them.
I'm also a little disappointed having two distinct periods to collect for coming up, but only because it's two things to split time/money. I am interested in both Napoleonic and AWI actions.
The ships all do look great!
There is a little that they can do, but the permissible sailing arcs are quite wide and expanding them much more even for F&A rigs will be taxing. Likewise "manoeuvres" on cards, there is precious little wiggle room here without getting into fantastical card based exploits that would seriously challenge the laws of hydrodynamics
I would think a zone change as small as 1/8 to 1/4 of an inch would have a rather large effect on how a ship sails. I would think this would hold true even on two ships that have the same maneuver decks.There is a little that they can do, but the permissible sailing arcs are quite wide and expanding them much more even for F&A rigs will be taxing. Likewise "manoeuvres" on cards, there is precious little wiggle room here without getting into fantastical card based exploits that would seriously challenge the laws of hydrodynamics
As for the maneuvers on the cards, they need not get fanciful with the actual maneuver being performed, just add in different degree sets. So if the turns were all the same "shape", but 5° tighter on each Veer rated card (perhaps limiting to 90° turns for any ship class), you could get a significant distinction... especially if you combined that with the slight change in attitude zones. This could be further implemented by only applying the change to one of the three sail settings, or to only the slight or extreme turns for that ship class. Lots of options to add variables here without ships doing crazy moves.
I think there biggest limit is the same as in Wings, the speed. They've set the maximum speed in the first Wave. This only leaves larger cards (as in WGS) for faster ships if we get them. Of course with my limited knowledge of ships and sailing, perhaps we will never see faster ship classes?
I just didn't want to be seen as the, "Thread Pirate Roberts" and get too far off topic.
You are right, we should not see faster ships, just more weatherly ones. Ultimately a Napoleonic era sailing ship is limited to hull speed, maybe less, which is calculated based on this formula: v= 1.34 x sqroot LWL (length on the waterline). So your fastest ship theoretically is the longest, but not necessarily given other considerations such as windage, displacement to sail area etc. So a 100 gun first rate while at a longer waterline length than a 74 may never attain the theoretically maximum, and ultimately the 74 is faster (and more maneuverable).
So speed is not necessarily the limiting factor in SoG, more so it is maneuverability, especially the ability to sail at a higher angle and speed to windward, or in a tactical sense to tack or wear quickly. Admittedly some of this would be out of the scope of the tactical rules, i.e.; can the chase escape by beating to windward.
Keith, Ares just posted some price information for Wave 2 ships:The prices of the ships in the real KS were more than what e-tail stores were going to be selling them at. I expect the same for Wave 2. They will be cheaper than buying them at full retails at a FLGS, but more expensive then buying them online. If they include any extras with them, that is what will really make them worth while. Other wise, it's better to just buy them from the AA store
Does this go along with your price estimation? There's no mention of reduced prices or extras for the KS folks. They only refer to the first wave original KS project. It's probably too early to say for sure, but unless you want to trade your Victory or Constitution it might be smarter to buy from you or online?We have a price range going from SRP $ 16 (Ship Sloop) to $ 24 (1st rate) in Wave 2, jus like in Wave 1 we had the same average of $ 20 ($ 18 Frigates, $ 22 74 guns) KS price were lower, of course.
Any views on the motivation for offering the exchange of Constitution/Victory special KS ships to the new Wave 2 ships as they will be out sooner? To me this is a really odd suggestion, I dont believe it would have a calming effect on any disgruntled KS pledges who were disappointed with the shipping process, nor would it appeal to those who want those two ships (even if other versions are later produced) and finally nor do I think it is necessarily a good offer. I wonder if they have underestimated the cost of these specials or something else? Anyway, I'm not going to change my order for them but am interested in others thoughts.
I strongly agree. After the recent mess why would they want to start it up again so soon? For people that just really want to get their money out they should push refund, and as a second option allow credit toward wave 2. But I don't see much upside for either Ares or kickstarters for just throwing it wide open. From here the fulfilment looked atrocious--are they so sure it's been fixed? The whole thing is confusing...
As someone who is in the 1% based on the last Ares update I also agree! Since I am not also in the Wall Street 1% I will wait for the better e-tailer pricing for Wave 2! Heck I may have Wave 2 before my original pledge sails in!
OK, here a sobering thought. I just read this again and considered it carefully:
Now then, when were the "ships produced" for wave 1? That is not entirely clear to me, but Ares reported them as "in production" in mid-July (i.e. with all the design changes already completed, pre-production signed off, etc. At that point it was labeled as "in production").We expect these new ships to be produced in March, and to have them in the USA in early May.
On the other end, they were "in the US" in early December, and I received mine in early January, somewhere in the middle of the pack for USA orders.
So are there strong reasons to think the delays won't be just as big this time around? Sure there was the holiday season and a little snow, but let's be realistic, I don't buy that these excuses added more than two weeks to the timetable. We're talking about ~6 working days lost. The problems seem to have been lack of visibility and process control on the production side, and god-awful slow fulfillment by a warehousing company more used to sending a few giant shipments out to big distributors. Sure this is the second time around, but given that there are already glitches (shortage of paper or ink?!) what does that tell us?
So let's just map it out off past experience and see where it lands..
Wave 1 July = Wave 2 March = production begins
Wave 1 Aug = Wave 2 Apr
Wave 1 Sept = Wave 2 May
Wave 1 Oct = Wave 2 June
Wave 1 Nov = Wave 2 July
Wave 1 Dec = Wave 2 Aug = ships arrive in US
Wave 1 Jan = Wave 2 Sept = average USA order may be delivered
I don't think there's any way I will see ships by next summer. I don't want to jinx it, but *maybe* 1st raters will hit the table by Christmas next year. In the meantime, better curb the irrational enthusiasm, and just enjoy the ships we have (or DON'T HAVE for those 1% ers). It's going to be a long haul...
Last edited by fredmiracle; 01-29-2014 at 09:02.
When it comes to release dates, I don't pay much attention to them. Based on past experiences, and I'm not just referring to Nexus, releases are almost never on time and often months later than expected. Therefore, I just take a "They'll get here when they get here attitude" and save a lot of disappointment.
That would put Wave 2 in the $11 - $18 price range on the AA site. I'm thinking that the KS offer will be discounted from retail, but not as much as online. Unless they give extras or free shipping, it looks like you will be able to save about $2 on a sloop by buying through AA.
I think it's really hard to draw out a timeline like this when we do not have all the info on the delays that effected the Wave 1 ships. In fact, we do know that all of the KS delays were not mini related... so any timeline trying to correlate Wave 1 production times to Wave 2 production times is pretty much point less... Apples to grapes.
So let's just map it out off past experience and see where it lands..
Wave 1 July = Wave 2 March = production begins
Wave 1 Aug = Wave 2 Apr
Wave 1 Sept = Wave 2 May
Wave 1 Oct = Wave 2 June
Wave 1 Nov = Wave 2 July
Wave 1 Dec = Wave 2 Aug = ships arrive in US
Wave 1 Jan = Wave 2 Sept = average USA order may be delivered
I don't think there's any way I will see ships by next summer. I don't want to jinx it, but *maybe* 1st raters will hit the table by Christmas next year. In the meantime, better curb the irrational enthusiasm, and just enjoy the ships we have (or DON'T HAVE for those 1% ers
I just didn't want to be seen as the, "Thread Pirate Roberts" and get too far off topic.
I wouldn't put much concern in the motives behind the V/C switch offer. To me it strikes me more as they are probably trying to offer as many options that the people that are disappointed about the V/C arrival push will find SOMETHING to make them less upset. Maybe not the best or most efficient way of handling it but I like to think their intentions are all in the right place for this.
I do hope that Wave 2 sets sail sooner, like mid/late Summer this year. But a little further out will give me more time to collect a few extra copies of Wave 1. I would support a Wave 2 Ks for sure. It would be great if they even offered some KS exclusive cards to give us some unique names for our Wave 2 ship models (no need for different models...just cards) or a couple exclusive Captain/Crew cards (maybe some "Captain" cards that are actually names of real captains with an appropriate special rule?).
Honestly, my experience in business has been that you get far more accurate results using last time's results as a baseline, rather than assuming "next time it will work SOOO much better"
But I'm not really suggesting any given date can be predicted. That's kind of the point. The thing that staggered my mind is when I read "production in March, in USA beginning of May, again distributed via a Kickstarter process" and really thought about it in the context of all the "we're nearly there" updates we've received between July and, well, yesterday, and realized that they don't seem to have learned very much along the way.
Yes, for me it's not so much a matter of questioning motivations, as judgement and communications strategy.
I suppose they are the "eternal optimist" personality types...
I agree that you should look at the last results for expected results in the future, but we are not doing that here. In the KS we were looking at production of dozens of individual components by multiple manufactures. In Wave 2 we are looking at only new sculpts and edits of the cards that have already been laid out. A much simpler production run. Factor in that the actual minis have already been made and the only missing component is the cards, things do look a lot better. I think May is looking good for us to actually see these.
I just didn't want to be seen as the, "Thread Pirate Roberts" and get too far off topic.
I'll be happy to be wrong
If so Wave 1 is for Spring Break with the kids, and Wave 2 is for Summer with the kids
Hebe also uses a different maneuver deck 'E'. Swan uses Deck 'G'. Looks like the 100 Gun 1st Rates use Deck 'H'. Can't see the deck on the Ocean class, 'F' perhaps?
I would assume that Constitution will get it's own deck and Victory would possibly use Deck 'H'?
The Ocean Class is so big it overlays the front and rear of the card.
Last edited by HMS Lydia; 01-29-2014 at 12:41.
And you can't go wrong with that!
Yes, different arrows, but the card stock, artwork, inks, and cuts have all been approved and used before.
I just didn't want to be seen as the, "Thread Pirate Roberts" and get too far off topic.
The Trinidad has more decks, but L'Orient and its ilk are longer.
Thanks Carlos for confirming my 'speculation'.
Wave 2: "You're gonna need a bigger boat...."
Are we talking "Jaws" or the "Kraken"? lol.
My daughter and I haven't played or received everything from the first wave and she is already telling me we have to by the next 12 ships. I'm still paying off the first wave of products so hopefully they don't come too soon.
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