View Poll Results: Would You Participate in a Kickstater for a War of 1812 Expansion?

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  • Yes

    84 56.38%
  • No

    25 16.78%
  • Not sure

    40 26.85%
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Thread: Would You Participate in a Kickstater for a War of 1812 Expansion?

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coog View Post
    Naw, not nerds. I've seen the hordes of nerds in game stores and they aren't playing historical war games! They can tell you about every aspect of many fantasy lands but not hardly anything about history or geography. And they are the intelligent ones in our society. Western Civilization is dying. Were not nerds, just Neanderthals.
    Actually we're ahead of the coming trend. I've got a keen sense for these things.

  2. #52

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    "Naw, not nerds. I've seen the hordes of nerds in game stores and they aren't playing historical war games! They can tell you about every aspect of many fantasy lands but not hardly anything about history or geography. And they are the intelligent ones in our society. Western Civilization is dying. Were not nerds, just Neanderthals."



    True observations and words.

  3. #53
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    No, we're just the ones who see what comes when well-intentioned and intelligent but short-sighted people who don't know how to see the next miles down the road take the reigns--and they don't see that because they refuse to read the roadmap of history.

    In short, we're the ones in our own small way fighting to keep the torch of enlightenment burning in an ever-dimming world... and sadly, I expect it to only get worse rather than better. Would you believe there are people in the generations after mine who think James Bond is new and Daniel Craig is the first actor to play him? (And to many of us who grew up on Connery and even MOORE, and the original Fleming novels, the casting of Craig was an Act of HERESY...)

    Kind of like if someone had tried to evacuate the most important knowledge from the Library of Alexandria and preserve it when the barbarians (and I use that term by action, regardless of religion) at various times sacked and ultimately destroyed it...

  4. #54

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    I hate to say it but, Craig plays James Bond like Ian Fleming describes him in his books.
    What Hollywood doesn't seem to get, it was the humor of Connery, Moore, Brosnan & the rest is what made 007 such a great hit. Craig just doesn't have it.

  5. #55
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    True, and the next closest to text canon was Dalton--but compared to the original tet-on-page, in many ways the Connery films were an IMPROVEMENT... and while Moore's The Man With The Golden Gun got a little out-there with the title weapon and some of its tech (in the book Scaramanga had a gold-plated Colt .45), at least IT you could discuss in polite society unlike most of the source novel. (Seriously, with the prevalent obscenity statutes at time of publication, it's a wonder that one ever saw print...)

    But we're :OFF-TOPIC: now...

  6. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coog View Post
    Sadly your right. And not historical pirates. The public prefers Johnny Depp and "Pirates of the Caribbean" over Russell Crowe and "Master and Comander." Ares may should focus on phantom ships with ghost crews instead of HMS Surprise. That's where the real market is.
    Edward Scissorhands vs The Gladiator. See it at a theatre near you next holiday season.

  7. #57
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    THAT whackjob? The REAL captain of the Black Pearl was Sir Henry Morgan...

    For a while, anyway. LOL

  8. #58
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    NO, I haven't even got the spoils of my last KS for this system. WHy would I do it again.

  9. #59
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    I would want to see 1812 ships as expansion packs, but if the only way to get them is through a KS or if the KS 1812 pieces are going to be exclusives, then I would participate in it... just don't see the need for them to market the expansion this way.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    THAT whackjob? The REAL captain of the Black Pearl was Sir Henry Morgan...
    http://www.innovatoys.com/metal-work...arl-model/6109

    I need to get some pics of my copy....

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7eat51 View Post
    From a marketing perspective, I would choose pirates over 1812, regardless of anniversary tie-ins. I think the broader public is familiar with pirates and not with 1812. SoG, like WoG, will attract general gamers and not just harder core historical wargamers.

    From a personal perspective, I would love an 1812 expansion; however, I would like all types of expansions - Anglo-Dutch, Russian-Swedish, Spanish, etc.
    I would guess that Ares is thinking that since the majority of the SGN business (and maybe all of their business) is coming from the US, and the closest cronological war to the Napoleonic era involving the US was the war of 1812, that should be their next stop.

    While I will no doubt be a buyer of the 1812 ships, I would be a more enthusiastic buyer of the ships of Henry Morgan, William Kidd, Bartholomew Roberts, and Edward Teach.

    In that regard, I think that to do the Black Pearl would cost more money in licensing fees than Ares could ever, to pardon the expression, swing.
    It would also be a ship for which I, with my anachronistic tendencies, would have no interest.

  12. #62
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    Right, Bruce--I was thinking of Morgan's Pearl, which the overfamed rodent can't claim copyright on, as opposed to the fictional one built on an oil-rig support vessel... LOL

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    Right, Bruce--I was thinking of Morgan's Pearl, which the overfamed rodent can't claim copyright on, as opposed to the fictional one built on an oil-rig support vessel... LOL
    If Disney will go after the Ormond Street children's hospital...

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardPF View Post
    I would guess that Ares is thinking that since the majority of the SGN business (and maybe all of their business) is coming from the US, and the closest cronological war to the Napoleonic era involving the US was the war of 1812, that should be their next stop.

    While I will no doubt be a buyer of the 1812 ships, I would be a more enthusiastic buyer of the ships of Henry Morgan, William Kidd, Bartholomew Roberts, and Edward Teach.

    In that regard, I think that to do the Black Pearl would cost more money in licensing fees than Ares could ever, to pardon the expression, swing.
    It would also be a ship for which I, with my anachronistic tendencies, would have no interest.
    As a new game, I would advise Ares to start with the broadest appealing lines. The last thing any of us need is for ships to sit on store shelves. There is a large box of WWII WoW planes at our FLGS. I have offered to buy and send them worldwide to Aerodrome members, and the store owner gave me a deal at $7 per plane. Only a half-dozen folks requested any, and most were the WWI planes or two models of WWII fighters. The rest are sitting at the store collecting dust. Furthermore, once the bug bites, general players might have more inclination to learn and care about other AoS historical periods.

    I, too, am out on any fantasy-related ships. I just saw a tactical WWII kickstarter that has a horror-related stretch goal module. I really don't want to blend genres.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7eat51 View Post
    As a new game, I would advise Ares to start with the broadest appealing lines. The last thing any of us need is for ships to sit on store shelves. There is a large box of WWII WoW planes at our FLGS. I have offered to buy and send them worldwide to Aerodrome members, and the store owner gave me a deal at $7 per plane. Only a half-dozen folks requested any, and most were the WWI planes or two models of WWII fighters. The rest are sitting at the store collecting dust. Furthermore, once the bug bites, general players might have more inclination to learn and care about other AoS historical periods.

    I, too, am out on any fantasy-related ships. I just saw a tactical WWII kickstarter that has a horror-related stretch goal module. I really don't want to blend genres.
    Perhaps one of the reasons that I have never "warmed up" to the WWII planes is that it seems like whoever has been selecting the planes has gone out of their way to pick obscure low production and low impact planes in order to represent as many nations as possible.
    If it was my decision, Me 109's, FW190's, Spitfires, Hurricanes, Mustangs, Corsairs, P38's, and Zeros would always be in productions. Producing anything else would be on a once in a great while basis in low numbers aimed at the collector of obscura (Fiat and Gloster WWII biplanes? What are they thinking?).
    The WWI release selection may be tending that way as well (look at what is in Series 5 and the upcoming Series 6 and then wonder about the D7 rerelease).

    Broadening the product line and selection is fine, but I think that if the first tier craft (of any line) go out of production and all that a new player trying to get involved can do is buy odd ball fringe items or pay $30 - $60 per item on eBay for old stock they will likely move along to something else.

    OK, Rant over...

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardPF View Post
    Broadening the product line and selection is fine, but I think that if the first tier craft (of any line) go out of production and all that a new player trying to get involved can do is buy odd ball fringe items or pay $30 - $60 per item on eBay for old stock they will likely move along to something else.
    I fully agree. It is hard to keep a business afloat, let alone grow it, without positive cash flow. Keep, as you say, "first tier" ships in production, and add to that limited runs of other ships. I think activity on the Aerodrome would support this. Many of the planes I see folks building on there are additional numbers of first tier planes they already have, but which Ares does not currently produce, for example Fokker D.VIIs. As a newbie myself, I have limited numbers of key aircraft because they are not in production, and I am not going to spend the money that folks are asking for them. I dislike the thought of having to build models of key planes/ships to play a game that already comes with its own minis. I can fully support building models of obscure ones, or building models just because I want to, for enjoyment's sake.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7eat51 View Post
    I fully agree. It is hard to keep a business afloat, let alone grow it, without positive cash flow. Keep, as you say, "first tier" ships in production, and add to that limited runs of other ships. I think activity on the Aerodrome would support this. Many of the planes I see folks building on there are additional numbers of first tier planes they already have, but which Ares does not currently produce, for example Fokker D.VIIs. As a newbie myself, I have limited numbers of key aircraft because they are not in production, and I am not going to spend the money that folks are asking for them. I dislike the thought of having to build models of key planes/ships to play a game that already comes with its own minis. I can fully support building models of obscure ones, or building models just because I want to, for enjoyment's sake.

    Yes, I guess I just had a flash of a time somewhere in the future where the only ships available from Ares in current release were Danish, Russian, and Cornish Luggers.

    It would seem to me that secondary/alternative suppliers, like Shapeways and $60 Goering D7's on eBay in this case, only come about when there is a significant market need that is not met by the franchise holder.

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    Right, Bruce--I was thinking of Morgan's Pearl, which the overfamed rodent can't claim copyright on, as opposed to the fictional one built on an oil-rig support vessel... LOL
    "overfamed rodent..." LOL

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardPF View Post
    Perhaps one of the reasons that I have never "warmed up" to the WWII planes is that it seems like whoever has been selecting the planes has gone out of their way to pick obscure low production and low impact planes in order to represent as many nations as possible.
    If it was my decision, Me 109's, FW190's, Spitfires, Hurricanes, Mustangs, Corsairs, P38's, and Zeros would always be in productions. Producing anything else would be on a once in a great while basis in low numbers aimed at the collector of obscura (Fiat and Gloster WWII biplanes? What are they thinking?)
    OK, Rant over...
    Well that may have some of it, but a large percentage of gamers, imho, declined the whole ww2 version of wings based on the switched scale. Looking at the basis of their rationale on switching from 144 to 200 scale, I would expect that their early jets would be about 1/600 and the newest jets around 1/1200 or 1/2400 scale. Sorry way too many people are buying the miniatures to game with and want them to look good on the shelf, which for most display types want the same scale for a given type - airplane, ship whatever. If Sails switches scales from 1000 to something else because they go to triremes or steam, it would be a no sale on my part.

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardPF View Post
    If it was my decision, Me 109's, FW190's, Spitfires, Hurricanes, Mustangs, Corsairs, P38's, and Zeros would always be in productions. Producing anything else would be on a once in a great while basis in low numbers aimed at the collector of obscura (Fiat and Gloster WWII biplanes? What are they thinking?).
    Probably "Everyone and his dog makes those -- the market's saturated with cheap minis of the well-known stuff; the only chance of selling our stuff is to go places the Big Guys won't". It's been argued before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by csadn View Post
    Probably "Everyone and his dog makes those -- the market's saturated with cheap minis of the well-known stuff; the only chance of selling our stuff is to go places the Big Guys won't". It's been argued before.
    Is that why there still sitting on shelves, and on sale by so many retailers?
    I for one don't understand why Corsairs or even PZL 11's (were WWII started) were not put out. Just to name a few.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunner View Post
    Is that why there still sitting on shelves, and on sale by so many retailers?
    Yes -- at discounts which make me wonder how'n'ell they're staying in business. (And in some cases, I've seen the same models sitting on the same shelves for *years*.)

  23. #73
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    I'll have to reserve judgement until I get a chance to play this Kickstarter. One at a time at this price!

    But the period is interesting enough, sure.

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunner View Post
    I voted not sure.
    I would much rather see The age of piracy or Triremes (and I would pledge handsomely for both) before the war of 1812.
    I'm with Ed. I'd like earlier not later.

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunner View Post
    I voted not sure.
    I would much rather see The age of piracy or Triremes (and I would pledge handsomely for both) before the war of 1812.
    Ed, in looking for triremes have you come across www.romanseas.com? They have papercraft models you can buy, print and build. They have a complete world you can make, if you have the time and inclination.

  26. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunner View Post
    I voted not sure.
    I would much rather see The age of piracy or Triremes (and I would pledge handsomely for both) before the war of 1812.
    Ed, have you ever played War Galley by GMT? I recently picked it up. You can look at a set of living rules here: http://www.gmtgames.com/p-168-war-galley.aspx

    Quote Originally Posted by CHolgren View Post
    Ed, in looking for triremes have you come across www.romanseas.com? They have papercraft models you can buy, print and build. They have a complete world you can make, if you have the time and inclination.
    Thanks for the link Cory. The minis are rather nice. I hear the sound of more money fluttering away in the not-too-distant future.

  27. #77

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    Cool, more ships!

  28. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by CHolgren View Post
    Ed, in looking for triremes have you come across www.romanseas.com? They have papercraft models you can buy, print and build. They have a complete world you can make, if you have the time and inclination.
    No, I haven't seen it. And the more I think about it, due to the large scale of most battles I'm not sure Ares could make the ships and cards small enough to portray the battles. If anyone has thoughts on how this could be done, I'd love to hear about it.

  29. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunner View Post
    No, I haven't seen it. And the more I think about it, due to the large scale of most battles I'm not sure Ares could make the ships and cards small enough to portray the battles. If anyone has thoughts on how this could be done, I'd love to hear about it.
    I've written some fast play rules for small actions and fleet actions. If anyone wants a copy PM me with your email addie

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    Thanks Dave. PM sent.

  31. #81
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    Default Getting back to the original question...

    Getting back to the original question, I would not be quick to pledge 1812. Like others, I want to spend some time with this system before I'd invest even more in it.

    But the idea of the lake battles, in particular, seems interesting, and might be more attuned to the game scale and structure. Folks who are talking Trafalgar-- or even the Nile-- will, I think, find things very difficult.

    I've gotten to demo some very "big" WoW sessions-- but that has meant, at most, 12 players/planes on the board at the same time. As much fun as the 'target rich environment' is, things do slow down. From what I can see of the system for SoG, playing 6 on 6 will take a lot more time.

    So something like a lake battle, with a limited number of ships and many of those having very few guns, might move faster and be more interesting in the long run.

    As for the plane/release discussion... I also have to shake my head in concern. I've been eager to get the Me110 to flesh out the "Battle of Britain" that we couldn't quite do with the first 2 series, but the Beaufighter has such limited value in dog-fighting (be woe to anyone who gets in front of it) that I doubt I'll ever get one. The biplanes also seem a very odd release at this time.
    The "series 3" releases to relaunch the WoG system have sparked a lot of "say what?" when folks see the planes. The fact it's impossible to use the four planes for anything remotely historical against each other is not a big seller... WW1 has been more interesting and I grasp that Ares was likely trapped into Nexus' production pipeline, which is why their first WW1 releases were big bombers, followed by early war. I'm glad to see Series 1 return, but Series 6... given the span of use between the Sop Triplane and the SS D-3... oh my. The tripe is too new for early war-- too old for the Series 1 re-releases...or indeed, anything except the Series 3 releases and the Whale, none of which they should assume their buyers own. At least the Aviatik and some of the Hanroits can reasonably fight one another. And not having any 2-seaters for new customers to buy, for probably at least a year to come... makes things look very good for ebay resellers but I don't follow the business logic.

    I think Ares feels trapped between supporting original Nexus customers (which most Aerodrome folks probably are) and attracting new business, but I don't follow much how they are really being successful with either.

    Sorry-- I'll revert back to talking only ships on the ship forum. Ares gets to make a totally new start here and I look forward to seeing how they play it.
    Last edited by kduke42; 04-26-2013 at 15:34.

  32. #82

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    Models for the War of 1812 would actually span a period and theaters beyond the war itself. The American ships would also cover the Quasi War and the Barbary Wars as well as the War of 1812. The British ships would also be used against the French. In fact HMS Guerriere and HMS Java were originally French ships and would provide models for their French sisters. Quite a few battles outside the War of 1812 could be fought.

  33. #83
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    That's all good, and I think encouraging things like frigate vs frigate battles will be good for the system.

    But I'll try all that for awhile before getting deeper involved.

    Has anyone figured out how they plan on storing/transporting this stuff?

  34. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by kduke42 View Post
    Has anyone figured out how they plan on storing/transporting this stuff?
    Same way I move the airplanes -- in their original packaging. What I'm trying to figure out is some way to replace the plastic inserts with foam.

  35. #85
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    Welcome aboard Kevin. When you have a minute, head on over to the Welcome Aboard forum and introduce yourself. Folks will glad to meet you.
    http://sailsofglory.org/forumdisplay...Welcome-Aboard

    Kind of hard to say about transportation until ships and extras are in hand. I still don't have a good feel for what they will be like. I am currently figuring out how to do WGF components. With an ever growing collection ...

  36. #86
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    There's very little from 1812 that DIDN'T see service in the Napoleonic Wars first--in fact, the Leda-class frigates that were popular for North American squadron assignments were outwardly almost direct copies of the French Hebe-class from Wave 2, so that's an immediate reprint that can also expand the pool for the Nappy fans... also, there were a lot of British ships from the American Revolutionary War still in service so that's another "Cheap Pop" expansion. RDM has already mentioned thinking about ideas for other time periods...

    Oars of Glory at the Battle of Salamis or in the Punic Wars? LOL

  37. #87

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    Coog and Diamondback hit the nail on the head. The War of 1812 is Napoleonic. Part of what set the war off was other nations navys impressing US seamen into to fight the war in Europe. Which was going on everywhere except the Pacific, and due to Spanish holding there were even some skirmishes in that far off ocean.

  38. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    Oars of Glory
    Great name for the Trireme series.

  39. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunner View Post
    Great name for the Trireme series.
    There will have to be background CD for the series. Oars splashing in the water, a drum beating out the rowing cadence, and of course...the cracking of a whip.

  40. #90

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    Maybe we could lift & edit it from Ben Hur.

  41. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunner View Post
    Maybe we could lift & edit it from Ben Hur.

  42. #92

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    My arms ache just watching it. A couple of shots of the ships wouldn't hurt. Maybe from Cleopatra also.
    Ya I know, you just can't please some people.

  43. #93
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    This one is not for me

  44. #94
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    FWIW I tried out a very simple galley variant and it worked extremely well. Still lots of development needed if I get the time but as and when I tet it advanced enough I shall post it here.

  45. #95
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    It would be far to difficult for me to pass up on anything dealing with the War of 1812!!

    I'd probably start another war just to make sure they make ships for the period!!

  46. #96
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    I would buy ships for the War of 1812, especially if they cover the battles on Lakes Ontario, Erie, and Champlain. I would buy these however they are produce: by KS or normal distribution channels.

  47. #97
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    I'm enjoying SoG so much, I think I'd be up for a new KS. I like the idea of Great Lakes small ship actions as well as the famous deep water frigate battles. Could this be part of a larger KS campaign? 1812, pus War of the Austrian Succession/ Seven Years War? I'd also like to see 1/1000 scale official "cutting out" action rules and maybe some 3-D terrain along the lines of Langton Miniatures work. I was expecting something different however. I'm not spreading rumors as I don't think there is anything being said about this, but I'd like to see a playable Amercan Civil War naval variant with both blue water and riverine actions, and dare I hope, a very playable WW1 naval game. I hope Ares has deep pockets but if they need another KS to take them forward, this time I will participate.

  48. #98
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    Personally, my advice to Ares would be to use Kickstarters sparingly in light of them being a direct competition with Brick & Mortar--maybe as a quick shot for cash-flows only or to get capital built up for launching new lines, and I'd definitely suggest that the Kickstarter Pledge rewards should include things unavailable anywhere else.

    While I wouldn't buy more of them, I for one would be OK with the four Kickstarter ships being offered again as part of a new Kickstarter campaign, as long as they STAY only available when Ares runs a Kickstarter and the re-runs are well publicized, perhaps even having a "Second Run", "Third Run", etc note added to the product ID sticker.

  49. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    While I wouldn't buy more of them, I for one would be OK with the four Kickstarter ships being offered again as part of a new Kickstarter campaign, as long as they STAY only available when Ares runs a Kickstarter and the re-runs are well publicized, perhaps even having a "Second Run", "Third Run", etc note added to the product ID sticker.
    If Ares did that it would ruin their credibility. They did say KS participants only. I for one would never believe them again.

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    Ed, that'd still be Kickstarter participants... there's a difference between "Only Available Through Kickstarter" and "Only Available Through THIS Kickstarter". Besides, they did say that it was that specific combo of sculpt, stats, paint AND package that was the exclusive... which leaves TONS of Lawyer Room.

    I'm not saying they SHOULD, just that from certain interpretations of their wording they COULD and I for one would not hold it against them as long as the LETTER of previous statements was adhered to--and as long as there was some note on the package and maybe the card/log that could be clearly differentiated from our Day One Specials.

    Then again, my perspective is a little different and just may be kinda skewed, having been involved with lots of games where I didn't even have any way to know they existed pre-2nd or 3rd set and seen lots of "what're YOU griping about? I got MINE so bleep you, Johnny-come-lately" attitudes through those years and games, sometimes severe enough to make me drop out completely. And if I'd been able to come up with a few hundred bucks more, I might've bought a few extra exclusives to set aside and cut rookies a break on later...

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