Handling of Damage Counters - one bag per type or several?

[William Bush]

Gentlemen,

I am contemplating how to handle the Damage Counters.

In a Starter Box you have a given number of types A through E. The Starter Box is designed for use with four ships.

Likely, the damage Damage Counters would be suffcient for handling battles exceeding four ships. At some point, though, you would need an extra set of Damage Counters, I suppose.

The question now is - how do you handle the Damage Counters?

Assuming you have an extra set of Damage Counters - would you:

a) Add these to the original set into the respective bags A through E?
b) Or do you use a second set of bags A through E for the second set of counters?
c) Do something else?

On which reasons is your answer based?


Follow up question:

I do have the Accessory for Coastal Batteries. Unfortunately, I cannot remember, if extra Damage Counters came with that set. Were there any in it?


Thanks for your advice
Lt. Bush

[Dobbs]

I'm a "put the chits back in the bin" guy.

[Bligh]

I have added two lots of counters to the original set, and they go back into the bags after use at the end of the game. However with the clean off ship logs which I now use the chits can go straight back into the bag. This also saves time when clearing up at the end of a game.

Rob.

[Vagabond]

I have 3 sets of damage counters including the ones from the original starter set and combined them.
I still like to use the original ships logs rather than clean off ones like The Admiral and Dobbs do, but it's just an aesthetic thing because I believe a laminated card is a more convenient option. Note I'm still pretty much a novice having only played 15 to 20 games and all but 1 of them solo, maximum of 8 ships at any one time.

[Argo]

I have the starter set damage counters and one or two additional sets. And one set of damage counter bags A-E where they all come in.

Why use only one set of bags for several counter sets?
For practical reasons. I do not want to buy a second (or third) set of bags, and I think in a large game with, let's say, 12 ships it will almost be impossible to separate the counters into the correct bags after the game. Sooner or later something will get mixed up anyway.

The coastal batteries require a different set of action tokens (the "fire" and "reload" tokens have a different symbology and you don't need ship specific actions like lower sails or raise sails) but I don't think they include additional damage counters.


In one situation we put the counters back (always in the correct bags, of course) during an active game:
When a ship sinks, burns or strikes it's colours, so that is no longer an active part of the game. Then the ship's log is cleared immediately and the counters go back in the bags so the can be drawn a second time in the same game.
Actually, we just follow the standard rules here (page 18, "surrendering of a ship").

[Bligh]

I know that some shipmates use a set of bags for each side in a game, but take your point Achim. Unless you are going to insist on putting all the chits back yourself at the end of the game some will end up in the wrong set of bags. For me like yourself, one set of bags is enough, and even then when checking after a game I often find the odd rogue chip in the wrong bag. I suspect partly due to the stacking system on the mats. The wipe off system gives me complete control over the chits going back into the bags after every move in the game and keeps the odds all square.

Rob.

[Lieste]

One of the 'features' of a single set pick and keep chit allocation is that it reduces the extremes of randomness, and gives the intended population of probabilities. Infinite chits, and especially pick and replace don't have this 'single deck' property, with each result becoming independent... this does change the game outcomes considerably.

[William Bush]

Gentlemen,

your contributions provided some interesting insights:

1) There seems to be no defined standard in the community on the matter.
2) Practical reasons seem in favor of the "one bag per type" approach, because it will be difficult to tell different sets apart to keep them separate
3) Common practice - in accordance with the rules - is to immediately return any used damage counters to their respective bags upon surrender of a ship.

As a bottomline, I conclude that a "common sense" approach exists as the current standard.


I had asked, because putting counters of different sets into one bag would allow for slightly different outcomes. Theoretically, provided you have enough sets of damage counters, it would be possible to draw, say, 20 broken masts in a row. This would not be possible, if sets are kept separate. But I assume that there is no 'hardcore' tournament scene for SoG, in which some pettifogger could take exception to such (IMHO meaningless) subtleties.

The difficulty of keeping sets of damage counters separate is a real one - unless undue effort to prevent this would be taken.

Just to record the knowledge somewhere, it seems sensible to make a list of the number of counters per type or to make scans of the counter sheets before punching them - maybe to post the results here for the community. This would allow to recreate "full sets" in the event of any type of mixup occurred, say in Trafalgar-type conventions.

I may be forgiven to (time and again) refer to ASL as a comparison: There, the issues of mixing counters while unsing sets of separate players is to have one player use counters for side A, the other for side B. For "systems-counters" (i.e. administration/management), only those of one player are used. Thus, it is easy to separate them after the game. However, in ASL there are hardly any multi-player situations and very rarely more than two "sides". Opposed to that, SoG uses "systems-counters" only, and the chance for multi-player situations and/or players bringing their individual sets of counters for a given scenario is higher. As such, the initial situation is different.

I may remark - that at least for the time being - it would be possible to retrieve MY personal set(s) of SoG counters from any situation, because likely these are the only ones having clipped corners. Yet, I still would have to rely on recorded knowledge of how many counters of a given type ar part of the standard counter-sheets and sets to separate my personal multiple sets...


Lt. Bush

[William Bush]

One of the 'features' of a single set pick and keep chit allocation is that it reduces the extremes of randomness, and gives the intended population of probabilities. Infinite chits, and especially pick and replace don't have this 'single deck' property, with each result becoming independent... this does change the game outcomes considerably.

Your response overtook mine - I was still typing...

This is why I posed the question initially, and to find out what the "standard" in the community is on this point.

In how far the game outcomes are changed "considerably" is the question. It would depend on a number of factors: The number of extra sets used, the time when counters are returned into the bags after ships surrender, etc. I think that the impact on the game is not really important.

Since the point of time when ships surrender or are sunk (and thus when used counters are returned into their bags) during a game cannot be forseen and is thus arbitrary from the perspective of the game-system itself, one could argue that the precise composition of the Damage-Counter-mix at a given point during the game what not considered to be of prime importance.

The game has likely been mainly playtested with one standard counter mix using mainly two to four ships (as this is the composition of the Starter Box). So, if one wanted to stay as close to the game designer's intent (provided if he cared or thought of such constellations at all...), one would probably use one counter-set per 4-6 ships. Which would not solve the issue of keeping them separate during or to separate them after the game.


Lt. Bush

[William Bush]

For practical reasons. I do not want to buy a second (or third) set of bags, ...

I did not purchase any set of bags offered as "official" Accessories for SoG, because I believe, these are overpriced. That said, you can get (quantities...) of suitable bags in the net for cheap and draw the A trough E letter label onto them yourself with a marker easily even if not talented in the fine arts...

I might post a picture of the bags I am using later. I think the price was among 1,5 to 2 Euros each and less than 5 minutes each to apply the letters on front- and backside with a marker.

Lt. Bush

[William Bush]

I have added two lots of counters to the original set, and they go back into the bags after use at the end of the game. However with the clean off ship logs which I now use the chits can go straight back into the bag. This also saves time when clearing up at the end of a game.

Rob.

This will probably be the approach I will take, along with scanning the unpunched counter-set to record their "composition".
As an alternative, I might add a second set of bags for the second set of counters, as this is not much more work and cost.

For starters, I will only shove around an overseeable number of ships anyway, so one set is sufficient for the time being.
Getting some routine with the game does make more sense than "all the gear, but no idea" after all...

Lt. Bush

[Capn Duff]

I have three sets of damage counters in my bags, mainly as for conventions we try to have between 2 to 3 ships per side…. Try that is not always able to.
I keep counters on the mats until the ship strikes