SGN Sales

[kenji]

I was curious to know if anyone had any information (or rumours) on how well SGN is selling?

I know that the Kickstarter campaign to launch SGN was a smashing success but since that time has the game been selling well in a market place that is saturated with other miniature games like X-Wing, Attack Wing, Wings Of Glory, etc ?

Do you see a growth of new players in your local areas?

[ChyronDave]

The only thing I can tell you is that my FLGS only has a couple of the add ons (coasts and shoals, etc.) in stock. There are a few people in our area who picked up the ships (myself included), but there is no game time organized like X-Wing or Attack Wing yet.

[Arakus]

I don't know of players here but the retailers i had contact tell me that the ships sell very well.
Also its seen that the ships are mostly sold out in good time at the online stores i check here and then.

So its a surprise for me that the game seems have a good player base in germany as there will be no german ships!
Or maybe there are some really greedy collectors?

[kenji]

The only thing I can tell you is that my FLGS only has a couple of the add ons (coasts and shoals, etc.) in stock. There are a few people in our area who picked up the ships (myself included), but there is no game time organized like X-Wing or Attack Wing yet.

In my city (as far as I know) only one FLGS stocks SGN. That store also stocks the other miniature games I mentioned and they are selling briskly. If I was to hazard a guess this is how I would rank the popularity based on what my discussions with the store:

1. X-Wing
2. Attack Wing
3. Wings Of Glory
4. Sails Of Glory

[Coog]

In my city (as far as I know) only one FLGS stocks SGN. That store also stocks the other miniature games I mentioned and they are selling briskly. If I was to hazard a guess this is how I would rank the popularity based on what my discussions with the store:
1. X-Wing
2. Attack Wing
3. Wings Of Glory
4. Sails Of Glory

I would say that's probably typical of most stores in the U.S. and Canada. I don't think any of the other games approach the popularity of X-Wing although Attack Wing does have a strong following just because of the Star Trek theme. I'm not sure how X-Wing and Attack Wing do in other parts of the world.

[kenji]

I guess the "youth" of today (by that I mean the 18-28 male group demographics) prefer sci-fi over historical games. I guess "popular culture" movies and TV Shows trump all.

[fredmiracle]

I like sci-fi to read, but as far as gaming the "made-up-ness" of it is not very interesting to me.

But for the people who don't mind that, then having the chance to make it all up, and generally to extend the "canon" ad-infinitum, gives game designers a lot of room to work with to make the game whatever you want it to be (i.e., want to add something to the game? just introduce a new faction, technology, superpower, class of ships, conflict, planet, whatever...)

And of course Star Wars and Star Trek are just super popular

[Arakus]

I guess the "youth" of today (by that I mean the 18-28 male group demographics) prefer sci-fi over historical games. I guess "popular culture" movies and TV Shows trump all.

Maybe its because they don't see the magic beauty of a sailing ship of the past.

[Coog]

I like sci-fi to read, but as far as gaming the "made-up-ness" of it is not very interesting to me.

But for the people who don't mind that, then having the chance to make it all up, and generally to extend the "canon" ad-infinitum, gives game designers a lot of room to work with to make the game whatever you want it to be (i.e., want to add something to the game? just introduce a new faction, technology, superpower, class of ships, conflict, planet, whatever...)

Actually X-Wing adheres to the Star Wars lore that is centered around the first three movies. I just started collecting models and playing a couple of months ago and did not know much more than what was in the original three movies and hadn't paid that much attention to the different ships. After doing some research I found that the game tries to replicate the Star Wars universe as if it was real history. I picked up a book from the 90's that covers the ships in Star Wars in the same fashion as my books on historical warplanes. The flight characteristics, armament, strengths, and weaknesses of each ship is discussed. I've found that the characteristics of the ships in the game closely simulate that of their characteristics in the "history" that has been was created for Star Wars. I guess that it is one reason I've become hooked on the game. It is almost like playing an air combat game based on actual history.

[kenji]

Actually X-Wing adheres to the Star Wars lore that is centered around the first three movies. I just started collecting models and playing a couple of months ago and did not know much more than what was in the original three movies and hadn't paid that much attention to the different ships. After doing some research I found that the game tries to replicate the Star Wars universe as if it was real history. I picked up a book from the 90's that covers the ships in Star Wars in the same fashion as my books on historical warplanes. The flight characteristics, armament, strengths, and weaknesses of each ship is discussed. I've found that the characteristics of the ships in the game closely simulate that of their characteristics in the "history" that has been was created for Star Wars. I guess that it is one reason I've become hooked on the game. It is almost like playing an air combat game based on actual history.

Don't abandon us Bobby! Star Wars is luring you to the Dark Side of miniatures gaming, you need to stick with SGN

[Coog]

Don't abandon us Bobby! Star Wars is luring you to the Dark Side of miniatures gaming, you need to stick with SGN

Star Wars is one of those unexpected games that joins SGN, WGF, and WGS in taking even more of my money.

[kenji]

Star Wars is one of those unexpected games that joins SGN, WGF, and WGS in taking even more of my money.

All you need now is to add Attack Wing and the family is complete :-)

P.S.
As it is I have minis from all three games like you do :-(

[Coog]

All you need now is to add Attack Wing and the family is complete

I looked at Attack Wing while I was looking at X-Wing. Attack Wing mainly lost me on the lack of its ships being all one scale. Also in talking with players I found that you can mix characters from all different time periods and factions. I like a well defined setting, so that it has a historical feel to it. And the dog fighting nature of the game system used by both just seems to have a feel that fits the prevalent fighter type ships of X-Wing much better than the huge, heavily crewed ships of Attack Wing.

[Diamondback]

Bobby, X-Wing's getting into that with some of the EU ships too--E-wings come in like 10 years after Classic Trilogy.

[Coog]

Bobby, X-Wing's getting into that with some of the EU ships too--E-wings come in like 10 years after Classic Trilogy.

The E-Wing is a later fighter but does overlap with some of the earlier stuff. As long as it all is in the same generation I'm okay with it. Its kind of like WGF and WGS, and hopefully like SGN when it gets some later ships. You can play anything together if you wish but you can also keep it "historical" and play only with ships that are available at a specific date. I guess you could say the E-Wing is the Sopwith Snipe of X-Wing.

[7eat51]

I am meeting many X-Wing players, most of whom are older. Remember, we watched the original movies when they came out. I think for many folks, they had poor experiences with history in school, so they might project "boring" onto historical gaming. I just started collecting X-Wing with a desire to use it as a gateway game to WoG and SoG.

As far as SoG sales at our FLGS, they would be slow at best. As we play there more, I hope sales will take off. It is hard to compete with Magic, though.

[csadn]

I am meeting many X-Wing players, most of whom are older. Remember, we watched the original movies when they came out. I think for many folks, they had poor experiences with history in school, so they might project "boring" onto historical gaming. I just started collecting X-Wing with a desire to use it as a gateway game to WoG and SoG.

As far as SoG sales at our FLGS, they would be slow at best. As we play there more, I hope sales will take off. It is hard to compete with Magic, though.

Let's face it: A large part of the problem with historical gaming, and _SoG_ in particular, is the fact that we "know" how the games played out. One plays The Nile, the French get squashed; one plays _Constitution_ vs. British frigate, 1-0 to the Colonials. The only example I can think of for "balanced campaign" in _SoG_ would be the Suffren-v.-Hughes battles in India; it's about the only way one can use the same ships for multiple battles in a historical context, and not have one side or the other jobbing. _Magic_, there's no set examples of how it "should" play out. Similar applies to _X-Wing_; aside from the "big-name" events, no one knows for sure how the game "should" play out, so there's more room to be creative. (For ex.: I have a _Tantive IV_, two Rebel transports, and a brace of fighters -- I run it as a Rebel commerce-raiding force; one transport is a fighter-carrier; the other transport is an UNREP unit; the Tantive escorts the two unarmed units; the fighters head off to raise hell.)

I guess you could say the E-Wing is the Sopwith Snipe of X-Wing.

It's only used by Munchkins and Power-Gamers?

>;)

[David Manley]

I was curious to know if anyone had any information (or rumours) on how well SGN is selling?

........

Do you see a growth of new players in your local areas?

In a word, no. I know of quite a few who have dabbled, but not taken their games further.

[David Manley]

It's only used by Munchkins and Power-Gamers?

>;)

D.VII, surely?

[David Manley]

Bobby, X-Wing's getting into that with some of the EU ships too--.......

Great, are we getting Typhoons and Rafales?

[David Manley]

I'm not sure how X-Wing and Attack Wing do in other parts of the world.

Both seem to be doing well in the UK, X Wing in particular. Attack Wing does suffer in reputation somewhat from the rather poor models though

[Diamondback]

Great, are we getting Typhoons and Rafales?

First French, now YOU?! :P (Star Wars EU = Expanded Universe, like E-wing)

[RotS-Targe]

I don't go to a lot of places, the place I got my first ship at didn't have any Wings, though it did have pretty much everything else mentioned. I chatted with the lady at the counter about SGN for a bit, she says there's only one guy in the store who she knows has it, and he works there. It didn't seem like they were selling very well, but from what I've seen that place is mostly Magic with a couple tabletop gamers in a table in the corner, I recognize one of the regulars there as one who plays a lot of historical stuff and from I've seen has wide interests, so I might corner him some time and offer to play SGN once I have the started and get the rules down, but, I am not quite sure the store I go to will buy anything new of the game, from what I've seen it's very dead here. I know of a couple other FLGS around here, I may take a peek inside and see if there's anyone playing there, but I am doubtful that there is much interest where I'm at, which is unfortunate, because I do want to find someone to play with.

[kenji]

IMHO ...

SGN has the potential to be a great game but I fear it will never gain the popularity of X-Wing or even Attack Wing. Historical games aren't "hot items" for today's younger buyers.

At best SGN might rival WGF/WGS but only time will tell.

I just hope that Ares understands what the marketplace will bear and not abandon the game for other priorities.

[Diamondback]

Frankly, I'm starting to think Ares might be better served to focus on maritime museums rather than game stores... I mean, selling Victory and Constitution at their respective gift shops is so No Brainer that even the dimbulbs at Old WizKids could get it.

[kenji]

Frankly, I'm starting to think Ares might be better served to focus on maritime museums rather than game stores... I mean, selling Victory and Constitution at their respective gift shops is so No Brainer that even the dimbulbs at Old WizKids could get it.

I'm just hoping that Ares IS GOING to be releasing the Victory and Constitution!

[Diamondback]

Pre-prod samples were due last week...

[Naharaht]

Only one shop in my area stocked 'Sails of Glory'. They sold out everything and have not been able to get any more since. They are waiting for more.

[7eat51]

Let's face it: A large part of the problem with historical gaming, and _SoG_ in particular, is the fact that we "know" how the games played out. One plays The Nile, the French get squashed; one plays _Constitution_ vs. British frigate, 1-0 to the Colonials. The only example I can think of for "balanced campaign" in _SoG_ would be the Suffren-v.-Hughes battles in India; it's about the only way one can use the same ships for multiple battles in a historical context, and not have one side or the other jobbing. _Magic_, there's no set examples of how it "should" play out. Similar applies to _X-Wing_; aside from the "big-name" events, no one knows for sure how the game "should" play out, so there's more room to be creative. (For ex.: I have a _Tantive IV_, two Rebel transports, and a brace of fighters -- I run it as a Rebel commerce-raiding force; one transport is a fighter-carrier; the other transport is an UNREP unit; the Tantive escorts the two unarmed units; the fighters head off to raise hell.)

True, if one sets up historical scenarios. I do not feel any need to limit myself, thusly. In fact, I imagine that historical scenarios will only make for a small percentage of the games I run or in which I play. I will develop scenarios based on historical types of situations, but will not try to simulate the given ships, etc.

[Diamondback]

Or maybe play historically based scenarios but a slight change: What if Brueys was a little less unprepared at the Nile? What if Lawrence hadn't been so arrogant when he accepted Broke's challenge and lost Chesapeake?

You get the idea... "We know this is how it was done THEN by THEM... but if all you know is the general place and time of battle and the forces available to you, how might YOU fight it differently?"

[csadn]

First French, now YOU?! :P (Star Wars EU = Expanded Universe, like E-wing)

" o/~ I am part of a degenerate elite/
Dragging our society into the street/
Into the abyss, into the sewer, don't you see/
The man just told me -- he told me on TV.... o/~ "

>;)

[Nightmoss]

I've said this before and I'll repeat it again. Ares might draw in a larger and younger crowd if they could get someone to develop a basic Sails of Glory--Apple and Android Ap for the iPad, tablets, etc.

I think it would generate sales in the digital crowd, but also bring the tech types back to the table once they saw the ships in person. Having said that I'm sure they don't have the resources to put this into development and maybe they're concerned it would actually cut into the miniatures buying crowd?

[fredmiracle]

I've said this before and I'll repeat it again. Ares might draw in a larger and younger crowd if they could get someone to develop a basic Sails of Glory--Apple and Android Ap for the iPad, tablets, etc.

I think it would generate sales in the digital crowd, but also bring the tech types back to the table once they saw the ships in person. Having said that I'm sure they don't have the resources to put this into development and maybe they're concerned it would actually cut into the miniatures buying crowd?

Kids do love apps A helper app to handle the ship logs and chit draws would be convenient, and it might even help smooth the way for someone who likes the game but finds it fiddly; however it's not really going to draw anyone in by itself. On the other hand, a full-featured game might be popular and gain brand-new eyeballs, but hard to synergize with the minis...

[Diamondback]

Jim, good idea but while you're talking iOS, don't forget Android, AND DON'T leave out the Windows vote either. I would have bought the WGS app if they'd put it on something I can USE...

[Nightmoss]

Jim, good idea but while you're talking iOS, don't forget Android, AND DON'T leave out the Windows vote either. I would have bought the WGS app if they'd put it on something I can USE...

I'm an Android user, so I'd be real happy for an SoG mini game or app. Same for Windows and WGS.

[RotS-Targe]

Just a note on the app part, for it to have any meaning it will take a lot of work, which generally means a bit of money unless Ares has a few software engineers they can spare for the multiple months it would take to write this up. Programming isn't something you can just toss a programmer at and expect a good product, it takes time to get everything right with the features you want, and making sure everything is stable is a challenge unto itself. Further, I'm not sure an app tie-in to the game will do much, there isn't much that can't be done by hand that a phone could do better, maybe draw the damage counters for you? What would it be doing? Also, how would this draw in a bigger crowd? Have a big sticker on the starter saying "Improved with your smartphone!"? Yes, a lot of gamers (around here, at least (But then, I live in the heart of the Silicon Valley, so most people are)) are into tech, but I can't see having an app that is redundant being much of a draw, people will be able to tell that the app was thrown in as an afterthought. Also, advertising that there is an app might be alienating some of the less tech savvy gamers, or those without a device that can run it.
This subject would probably be best reserved as a separate thread, I really have nothing against an app being made, but there has to be a definite purpose to it that adds to the experience, but isn't necessary to play, which is a very difficult balance point.

[fredmiracle]

I wouldn't expect Ares to do anything. The real question there is whether they would they block any fan efforts.

I think conceivably the fans could create something decent. But I agree that the "purpose" isn't clear, i.e. what end result would justify the significant effort involved...

[David Manley]

I would be very surprised if Ares went down this pass (but then again surprises are often pleasant). The history of wargame-enhancing apps isn't all that wonderful to this point, or so it seems. A few years back there were promises of all sorts of game enhancing products that were going to be flooding the market for Android and those poor souls suckered into buying Apple products ( ) but not much has arrived so far, and a few Kickstarter projects aiming to deliver products like these have died a death.

There are, however, quite a few fan-generated game assistance bits and bobs on the web for a few products. I'm thinking the card builder for X Wing and various ship design packages for Full Thrust, and other similar things.

[kenji]

Everyone made very good points above in their comments, thanks.

IMO I think it all comes down to personal preference regardless of miniature quality, game components, electronic apps, etc.

Do you prefer to buy a historical wargame based on cannon equipped sailing ships or do you want to play a game filled with turbo laser equipped starfighters or phaser equipped starships.

Until preferences change SGN will not likely equal the popularity of X-Wing I think.

What I hope for is that SGN is popular enough so that companies like Ares will invest in producing and adding to this portion of the gaming market.

[fredmiracle]

Well, from what I gather on boards like this, SW players like the genre (who doesn't) and the quick fun games (but SGN has that too). However to me an obvious and maybe significant difference vs SGN is the "magic the gathering" element in SW. People seem to enjoy the fleet building (and tourney potential that adds), synergies between units, ace and weapon add on cards, power-up combos, etc.

[Nightmoss]

One of the hottest games previewed at Gen Con this year was XCOM the board game from Fantasy Flight Games. It's a board game that employs digital apps (Android, Apple) to randomize the Alien attacks, among other things. I think it will do quite well, but there's been a great deal of flack from the traditional board gamer's who want nothing to do with digital devices. FFG can afford to experiment in this area because they're big and have tons of money. Ares will likely never be in the same category and so any kind of digital development for either Sails or Wings isn't going to happen. There were other physical/digital games released at Gen Con too, but it's not relevant to this thread so no more digital talk.

Getting back to the OP, I don't see Ares sales increasing or even staying stable if they cant get their product out to the FLGS's as well as expand into areas that haven't been touched (aren't there some regions that have been sold out since KS/Wave 1 months and months ago?). They also need to 'feed the beast' with new ships or products to keep the existing fans content. I know they're small and they do things in the fullness of time, but if they don't get the word out folks are going to move on to other games. I think traffic on the Anchorage is in decline, which may be indicative of general gamer interest and that's not a good sign? Sorry if this sounds like a rant, but I don't want SGN to fade into oblivion like Leviathans did, from Catalyst Game Labs.

[David Manley]

but there's been a great deal of flack from the traditional board gamer's who want nothing to do with digital devices. .....

Surely not?

[David Manley]

I think traffic on the Anchorage is in decline, which may be indicative of general gamer interest and that's not a good sign? .....

I must admit I haven't looked at it seriously but one does get the impression that the vast majority of posts come from a limited number of members.

Maybe we are just more gobby

[7eat51]

I stopped by our FLGS yesterday. Sixty people showed up for a day-long Magic event. I am seeing this consistently there regarding Magic and Heroclix. Granted, fantasy genres trump historical genres in terms of mass appeal, but I am having a growing belief that some form of tournament play could be beneficial to promote a game. This is a turn for me, but I have been witnessing the enthusiasm of folks. The one problem I currently see with tournaments like drafts, or blind draws, and then playing with what you pull, is that the variety of ships within SoG is limited at present, and the difficulty of an individual playing multiple ships. I can envision team-based tournaments in which players pay an entrance fee, draw numbers corresponding to associated ships, play those ships, taking them home. Some form of record could be kept regarding win-loss with the top players moving onto a championship tournament and the rest a consolation tournament.

As for members onsite, there has been a marked decrease. There are several factors contributing to such a decline, I believe - lack of information and product flowing from Ares, lack of track record regarding solo campaigns, lack of new threads regarding AoS topics and history that generate discussion beyond expressions of disappointment with Ares, etc. We seem to be in a bit of a holding pattern at present. Hopefully, by January, solo play, AARs, and the upcoming year-long campaign will start a trend.

Maybe a group of us could take one day of the week each, posting something about AoS or SoG; this would not burden anyone too much, but generate meaningful dialogue. If we have 14 members commit to such a thing, each person would have two weeks to write up something in preparation to post. I could create a sub-forum for these.

[Diamondback]

Damn, I shoulda kept my powder dry and held my fire on my "sculpt re-use" threads... those woulda been perfect.

[csadn]

Surely not?

He's right.

And don't call him Surely.

[kenji]

Eric's comments above reflect my own view

SGN is already trailing in the "race" and if it doesn't get constant exposure (e.g. gaming events at the FLGS or conventions or Wargaming clubs) new players won't find out about the game and therefore won't be potential new customers.

It would also be nice if Ares could release a steady stream of SGN products just to keep the overall game system fresh, if nothing else but to feed the collecting bug.

I know that Ares has to prioritize their investments so SGN might rank low in the project list. Ares needs to evaluate their potential SGN market success and then decide whether or not to take a chance and put out more SGN products in the hopes of expanding their market share.

Good luck to us all

P.S.
We need ALL WGF / WGS players to also become SGN players lol

[kenji]

After reflecting on some of the comments that I have read in this forum I am beginning to wonder if Ares might be better served if they evolved their Sails Of Glory system into one that can game WW1/WW2 naval warfare.

Don't get me wrong, I really like the Age of Sail wargaming but somehow I am getting the vibes that this market segment is flat and not likely to grow. I base this opinion on my "perception" of the trending of SGN sales and the lack of new Ares products for this game. The "enthusiasm" just doesn't seem to be there.

If SGN evolved to cover WW1/WW2 Ares might be better off since they might be able to tap into their WGF/WGS fan base and he history of these World Wars is better known and taught in schools.

Once players are drawn into the WW1/WW2 sides they might also buy into the Age Of Sails. It's a matter of getting them hooked into the system to begin with :-)

[7eat51]

Kenji, I wonder about scale regarding WWI and WWII naval.

I, also, fear that if Ares looks at a new product line, SoG will receive less attention, and then sail into the fog perpetually.

If SoG sales are flat, which I am not sure how accurate that is given the lack of info we have, then Ares needs to ramp up marketing. It is a good game and worth the effort to make it succeed in the marketplace.

[Arakus]

If SoG sales are flat

The sales wouldn't be flat if there would be NEW stuff to buy, but the didn't even get any info about the new stuff and WHEN it will be released, thats the main problem!
They even have no date for retock of the wave 1 ships....

I have atm 2-3 of each model, but it is hard here in germany to get some older models ( mainly the 74gun ships ) without paying much to high prices, but ares didn't seems to support their playerbase for this game.