Could someone please post photos of the Wave 2 heavy frigate and sloop ship's mats? I'm dying to know what the stats are.
Wave 2 ship's mats details
Could someone please post photos of the Wave 2 heavy frigate and sloop ship's mats? I'm dying to know what the stats are.
I have a lot of outdoor projects I have to work on today so I don't know when I'll get a chance to do this. If no one else responds I'll try in the next few days?Originally Posted by Andy Blozinski
Took these very quickly during lunch. I trust you'll be able to figure them out (some ship names got cut off). Cheers!
wow the sloops are REALLY weak. 6 chits with any amount of hull damage and it's over.
Thanks Jim.
Although all the burden levels are now filled, they did leave more gunnery room between the burden-4 heavy frigates and the burden-5 third-rates than I had guessed. I guess this is how they plan to differentiate razees and fourth-rates and such
Sounds like a good merchantman to me. ( a convoy of 4 using battle sail speed, trying to get across the board of 2 or 3 game mats )
The real ones weren't exactly overbuilt.
The sloops are pretty much what I expected them to be. I kind of figured the heavy frigates might have just a little more in the gunnery department, but thinking on it now, I guess it's probably about right.
Yes, but sloops were not intended to 'slug it out' with anything bigger. They would run away or surrender, if running was not an option.
This is a good idea. Even if one wants to change the ships' stats, their small size would differentiate them on a table.
Thanks a lot, Jim!
I guess sloops weren't intended to defend ocean against evil SoL
But, perfect for small actions!
Sloops were usually used as messengers when with groups of larger ships, staying out of actions. They also were used for raiding or patrolling for enemy merchant ships along with protecting their own merchants against other sloops and smaller raiders. With the ships currently available, the one sloop class available is not of much use. You can fight them against each other or use them with a frigate against another frigate, trying to maneuver to get raking shots and stay out of the broadside of enemy frigates.
Looks like in the points values PDF, HMS Sybille is messed up. It's by far the best of the heavy frigates, but priced near the cheapest. Probably it should be 95 points instead of 85...
Keep in mind that the sloop class represented in Wave 2 is a smaller, older design. By 1812 ship-sloops could likely stand up to the 32 gun 12lber frigates from Wave 1. You have the USS Wasp as an example, 450 tons and armed with 16 32 lb carronades. The later built Wasp carried 20 32lb carronades and so threw more weight of metal at close range than the earlier frigate. Also think of HMS Levant a 6th rate of 20 32 lb carronades.
In the Battle of Grand Port one of the French ships was an 18 gun corvette and the British had a 22 gun ship-sloop present at the Battle of Lissa (HMS Volage 22 gun 6th rate). So there are occasions when they can be used in scenarios with frigates anyway.
Obviously some house rules for the armament would be in order, because the 1-2-1 in the first box wouldn't represent the 32 lb carronades, at close range anyway.
Eric
I don't think I would want to take on an older 32 even with the 1813 Wasp. At around 690 tons with 26 long 12-pounders, a fairly competent British Captain could tear the Wasp up before she could close to carronade range. And at close range the 32 had around a dozen smaller guns and carronades of her own to add to the weight of long guns.
Without arguing any of these points, I guess I was surprised the sloop had not only burden of 1, but also 2 less boxes than any other ship...
I don't think there was that much difference in general appearance. The sloop-of-war HMS Alert, captured by USS Essex at the start of the War of 1812, was nothing more than a converted collier.
True, but my point was that subsequently larger, more heavily armed ship-sloops or 6th rates were purpose built as warships. The HMS Volage may be a better example at 529 tons, (22 32lb carronades, 6 24 lb carronades on the QD, plus chasers). At the Battle of Lissa an unfortunate French captain was unaware she was armed with carronades and got too close, where the odds were more even. As you noted the odds would still be on the frigate with a good captain and crew, but not as one sided as the Swan class.
The term "sloop", as it refers to warships, can be somewhat confusing. Depending on the time period or nation, the same ship of 24 to 28 guns could be called a frigate, a corvette, or sloop.
Right starting from the reference to a single masted vessel. Also I keep referring to it as a ship-sloop because there were also brig-sloops (Cruiser class). Referring to Lavery I would correct the reference to the Levant, as in the RN sloops were unrated (vis a 6th rate). Essentially a sloop was a vessel commanded by an officer with the rank of commander (Lavery, "Nelson's Navy"). I believe the French equivalents were referred to as corvettes (ship rig with a flush deck).
Of course in the ACW a sloop of war was the equvilent of a frigate in the earlier period (ie USS Constellation).
Looking at the stats I am wondering where a 64 will fit in?
in between the 74s and the Hebes they have to fit Constitution, razees, 50-gun 4th rates and 64s, and probably more I'm not aware of.
I surmise from this that a 64 will be burden 5, with only a shade less gunnery/musketry than the Elizabeth class 74s.
Perhaps a gun line something like this?:
3-6-3 / 3-5-3 / 3-5-3 / 3-4-3 / 2-4-2 / 2-3-2 / 2-2-2 / 1-2-1 / 1-1-1
Having received Royal George (sans foremast) I'm getting my first look at the British first-rate deck (H).
As expected it's pretty limited, containing only turns from 3 to 7.
But there are also some oddities here I think. When you are sailing in yellow, the "shift to the side" veer-5 move actually gives you the same amount of turn as your maximum rudder. I guess that's OK. The ship also becomes significantly more maneuverable when taken aback of the wind and playing red cards. But maybe that's realistic too, since you are moving slowly and the wind can quickly whip you around (?). The oddest thing is that you seem to be at your most maneuverable with a broken mast, being able to make almost 90 degree turns to the side when sailing in green. Hmm... Can I play a broken mast card when I'm undamaged?
No, but your opponent will be happy to give you an/the axe.
One of the things we noticed at the last tournament was that some of the double broken mast cards are better than the single broken mast cards. I give the players the option to use either when they only have one broken mast.
I'd have to recheck the rule reference to be sure, but I think that is the correct way to play. The double mast cards are straighter...
I don't know what the heck happened, but I managed to lose my Unite/Courageuse ship's mats from the starter kit. I'd be quite appreciative to have a scan or photo of them.
Thanks KippI'll keep a set in my bag to use in case someone (not me of course
) forgets their ship log.
See also the arguments which can ensure when discussing _Constitution_'s takeout of _Cyane_ -- to the British, _Cyane_ was a "post ship" (big enough to warrant a captain's posting, but not big enough to be a "proper" frigate); the US did not have such a designation as "post ship", so _Cyane_ was classed a "frigate" (a *very* light frigate, but a frigate nonetheless)....
Andy,
Will do mate.
I might even get around to doing the Wave 1 Ship Logs (the official name, not Mats, my bad) also.
Gimme a day or two.
Let's see, major notches we have to slot in between Hebe and Slade Common 74:
--RN Common 74 (see the Slades)
--68 SOL (archaic, less common)
--64 Light SOL/squadron flagship
--58/60 razee or heavy superfrigate
--44/50 razee, two-decker or superfrigate
--38/40 medium frigate
Expanding the top range leaves Middling 74s (IIRC Temeraire is a middling), Large 74's (heavier main battery), 80/84's, 90/Light 98's, Heavy 98's/100's/104's (most SGN108 RN First Rates), 110's (SGN108 B-sides HMS Hibernia/Ville de Paris IIRC) and 118/120's (Ocean). Similar expansion down from 38/40 would include Large 36's (basically 38 hulls with fewer but bigger guns), 32/Small 36's (up-gunned 32's), 26/28 heavy post-ship/corvette, 20/22 light post-ship, and below that we get into real nasty hairsplitting.
The reason I list two numbers is that many times these ships would have extra guns added, whether in midlife refit or as part of a design revision before construction the next batch. For example, Hebe started the game at 38 but many were upgunned to 40's, descendants Virginie and Hortense classes started as 40s, and IIRC Pallas (final evolution) either was built as a 44 or soon upgraded to it, along with many of the older Virgine and Hortense ships.
Many later 16-gun sloops were upgunned to 18, while the Swans were first built at 14 and frequently upgraded to 16. THEN we get into fun with gun-brigs and smaller... Basically, with the stats on Swan I'd say anything smaller is going to be virtually ineffective in-game unless you have two brigs tossing shots at each other one chit at a time all day.
Which is the real shame of it as this is the end of the spectrum where these rules should shine
This is the problem with piecemeal design processes... and why when a few others from the WK Pirates board and I were trying to design a WWII game using Pirates mechanics, I insisted we start with the smallest units first and work up, despite everyone else wanting to go straight to Bismarck and Coral Sea.
Frankly, IMO the Swan is a statistical joke, and makes no sense in the game except for merchant-escort scenarios or something for frigates to go Playground Bully on. Might be good for representing a fireship, though... most of which were about that size and IIRC a few Swans were temporarily modified as FS's, never expended as such, and then reconverted with the phaseout of the fireship as a specific role in the RN.
The ONLY reason other than that I can see for it was wanting to save an RN medium frigate (which really the only significant-number sculpts of are Leda and Lively, as I recall) for pairing with American opposition. Even then, I personally would have gone with a Cruizer brig-sloop or something of similar size and population to fill out the wave.
Last edited by Diamondback; 05-26-2014 at 23:50.
I've been involved in playtesting and helping with the development of many rule sets over the years and the number of times this has come up, the number of times I've offered previous examples as LFE and asked "lets not make the same mistake again" - only to see the same mistakes made again and again and again. My other bugbear is developing the rules with an initial release planned - and then only thinking about all the other nice "stuff" afterwards. Often makes for inconsistent rules that don't hang together well, if at all. LFE point - develop it all, or at least as much as you can in the initial hit, release as a "oner" if you can and make friends with your customers by not getting into the supplement "money trough" game, or if you can't publish all in one hit then at least try to get everything else out in a single supplement. Rarely happens though.
Some of that depends on market sector, though--for a $5-15/pack or so "blind booster" collectible game, one would need to release multiple sets, but the point about maintaining cohesive, holistic development and thinking about "how are we going to slot all this together" still stands, and ESPECIALLY stands there. By the time WK folded, Walram here had once described the game as more complex than some company-level military operations he'd put together--and toward the end, they were getting to ludicrous "slap some crap together" and not everything fit together. (For example, you were only supposed to have one instance of an ability per ship, but loading Chainshot equipment and Chainshot Specialist crew let you toss two chainshots per turn.)
I totally agree that Ares is in a bit of a box in terms of differentiating ships of the same basic size, and expanding on the lower end
This may, however, be less a function of poor planning, and more a function of their commitment to using a chit-based system to allocate and track damage. If you wanted to open up more space for differentiation, you would (I think) have ended up needing to bag, draw and stack a whole lot more chits, which would have added expense, multiplied the complaints about it being fiddly, etc.
One can argue the use of the chit system, but it does have its upsides as well.
It is, of course, possible to imagine some ways they could have worked around this, but they would have introduced their own complexities. They could, for example, have defined several different scales of engagement--battleline, frigate and small-ship, say. But players wouldn't have been happy if you couldn't have frigates and SOLs interact. So then they might have felt pressure to issue multiple logs for each ship, so they could be played at the various scales. This would have been expensive and complex...
Or just a table weighting chits differently. Unrated up to say Fourth they count at face value, Third to First double, or maybe change the midrange in that to have Fourth and Fifth do 1.5x damage value rounded up.
Indeed, but I see those as evil devil spawn designed solely to extract as much money from punters as possible
The other question is, which Swan are they using for stats? The original design only throws a 45# broadside, most were built without the twelve 1/2# swivels reducing them to 42#, but in 1794 HMS Fly, one of the Swan Upgun Refits, was throwing 84# at Bad Breath Range between sixteen 6-pounders and the addition of six 12# carronades.
I have a chart I'll try to put up on Google Docs later this week that a few folks have worked with me on collecting variant armaments for.
Reposted ALL 48 Ship Logs in the following thread:
Ship Logs - Starter Set, Wave 1, Wave 2 (All 48) in General Discussions
Our local group just finished our regular Tuesday night game and found the Swan class ships rather fun. We played two vs. two, single ship each. The most notable thing is they are extremely maneuverable. When you hit with a max of 2 chits (unless you get a raking fire, then it's 3) and a burden of 1 - every hit is a damage box covered. However, the game was only marginally shorter than what we've normally experienced. We did find that just getting a few 0 chits makes a world of difference in the balance between the ships.
The question will be, what are you using them for? They may work OK as escorts. Just don't expect them to go toe-to-toe with anything much bigger. We'll have to see if you can swarm an enemy frigate and just how many it would take.
Also, it appears to me that it is more-or-less impossible to tack these ships without hitting the second hourglass and making sternway...
Can anyone offer me a little help on the ship cards? I'm almost done the updated spreadsheet of statistics, but I need info on a few ship cards.
If someone could fill in the gaps and double-check the guesses I'd appreciate it!
thanks!Code:Class Guns Crew Orient 1791 Ocean? 118? ? Austerlitz Ocean? 118? ? Imperial Ocean? 118? ? Republique Francaise Ocean? 118? ? HMS Royal Sovereign Royal Sovereign? 100? 850? HMS Britannia ? 100? 850?
Orient 1791 Ocean 120 1119
Austerlitz Ocean 102 1105
Imperial Ocean 118 1130
Republique Francaise Ocean 118 1105
HMS Royal Sovereign Royal Sovereign 100 850
HMS Britannia Royal George 100 850
Merci beaucoup!
No problem!
With more ships in hand I've been looking at the other decks and base cards.
One thing that surprised me is that, although the French Ocean class are slower and have a lower veer number than the British first-rates, they can actually go closer to the wind. The Ocean class have the same wind profile as the 3rd rates, meaning they can go as close as 50 degrees to the wind. The British first-rates have the worst cards yet in this respect, they can only sail as close as 55 degrees to the wind...
The Hebe class are very fast and maneuverable. They lose the 90 degree turns (veer 0/10) and have a veer rating slightly lower. But otherwise their deck looks very close to Concorde, and you still have the very sharp 1/9 turns. A really nice combination of speed and power.
Naturally the sloops are the best, they can go as close as 35 degrees to the wind. And their cards are really fast
You file has been approved. Nice work. Thanks, Fred.
Is it just me, or has anyone else had problems with wave 2 ship's logs being slightly too wide for the ship's mats?
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