On This Day 21 October

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10-20-2012, 23:02
Coog

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On This Day 21 October

On 21 October 1797 USS Constitution was launched.

Constitution's launching ceremony was scheduled on 20 September 1797 and was attended by then President John Adams and Massachusetts Governor Increase Sumner. Upon launch, she slid down the ways only 27 feet (8.2 m) before stopping; her weight had caused the ways to settle into the ground, preventing further movement. An attempt two days later resulted in only an additional 31 feet (9.4 m) of travel before the ship again stopped. After a month of rebuilding the ways, Constitution finally slipped into Boston Harbor on 21 October 1797, with Captain James Sever breaking a bottle of Madeira wine on her bowsprit.

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10-20-2012, 23:05
Coog

The Battle of Trafalgar (21 October 1805) was a naval engagement fought by the British Royal Navy against the combined fleets of the French Navy and Spanish Navy, during the War of the Third Coalition (August–December 1805) of the Napoleonic Wars (1803–1815).

The battle was the most decisive British naval victory of the war. Twenty-seven British ships of the line led by Admiral Lord Nelson aboard HMS Victory defeated thirty-three French and Spanish ships of the line under French Admiral Pierre-Charles Villeneuve off the south-west coast of Spain, just west of Cape Trafalgar. The Franco-Spanish fleet lost twenty-two ships, without a single British vessel being lost.

The British victory spectacularly confirmed the naval supremacy that Britain had established during the previous century and was achieved in part through Nelson's departure from the prevailing naval tactical orthodoxy, which involved engaging an enemy fleet in a single line of battle parallel to the enemy to facilitate signalling in battle and disengagement, and to maximise fields of fire and target areas. Nelson instead divided his smaller force into two columns directed perpendicularly against the larger enemy fleet, with decisive results.

Nelson was mortally wounded during the battle, becoming one of Britain's greatest war heroes. The commander of the joint French and Spanish forces, Admiral Villeneuve, was captured along with his ship Bucentaure. Spanish Admiral Federico Gravina escaped with the remnant of the fleet and succumbed months later to wounds sustained during the battle.

For the detailed story:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Trafalgar
10-21-2012, 10:52
Comte de Brueys

Trafalgar was the third and most dreadful blow the French Navy get from the British after (the capture of) Toulon and Abukir.:eek:

After 1805 Britannia ruled the waves for the next 100 years.

http://sailsofglory.org/attachment.p...1&d=1350838471
10-21-2012, 16:05
csadn

Quote:

Originally Posted by Comte de Brueys

Trafalgar was the third and most dreadful blow the French Navy get from the British after (the capture of) Toulon and Abukir.:eek:

Disagree -- Toulon was only temporarily held; and did not result in near the damage to the Continental fleets as Trafalgar did; neither did Aboukir inflict much damage. (For that matter: it was a full decade between Trafalgar, and Napoleon's final elimination as a world leader; at the same time as Trafalgar, the Austrians were getting their asses handed to them -- again -- at Ulm: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ulm .)

And, as the OP points out, this day also saw the creation of a unit which was part of a force which sent an unmistakeable message to Britain, as stated by Horatio Nelson watching that unit shake out of harbor: "In the handling of those ships lies a world of trouble for the Royal Navy"....
10-21-2012, 18:56
Berthier

Losses at Toulon were 14 SOL destroyed and 15 other ships captured, all of course being French. This was the Mediterranean fleet pretty much in it,s entirety for the French and dismembered their presence there for the next 5 years, at which time they lost yet another fleet at aboukir Bay this time 13 SOL and again smashing the French presence in the Med. Trafalgar saw 11 French ships lost plus Spanish.

The destruction at Toulon also included ships stores, building materials, ships under construction etc...it was a catastrophic loss to French naval power and shouldn't be underestimated. I think it's also important to separate French losses out from those of the Spanish, lukewarm allies at best, as the fight for naval supremacy was always going to come down to Britaina and France with sundry allies for each side at different times. French naval construction continued unabated to about 1811 I think but could never make good the losses in ships nor find the quality of crews needed.
10-22-2012, 01:44
Comte de Brueys

Quote:

Originally Posted by csadn

Disagree -- Toulon was only temporarily held; and did not result in near the damage to the Continental fleets as Trafalgar did; neither did Aboukir inflict much damage. (For that matter: it was a full decade between Trafalgar, and Napoleon's final elimination as a world leader; at the same time as Trafalgar, the Austrians were getting their asses handed to them -- again -- at Ulm: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ulm .)

What has Ulm to do with the French Navy? :confused:

Even with Napoleons greatest victory in Austerlitz 1805 - the British dominated the seas.

As Berthier wrote:

France lost 14 warships in Toulon (destroyed by the retreating British forces) - 15 other warships were capture by the British The Arsenal, forts and magazines were destroyed.

In Abukir the French Navy lost 11 ships of the line and 2 frigates.

You'll hardly find bigger defeats (naval warfare!) between the revolutionary wars and the end of Napoleons reign at Waterloo 1815.
10-22-2012, 15:12
csadn

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berthier

Losses at Toulon were 14 SOL destroyed and 15 other ships captured, [...]

If I remember correctly: Most of those "captured" ships were taken back when Bonaparte's forces retook Toulon; the British never got around to destroying them, and only took three of them when they left. (See the thread on captured ships in the captor's navy elsewhere on the forum.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berthier

The destruction at Toulon also included ships stores, building materials, ships under construction etc...it was a catastrophic loss to French naval power and shouldn't be underestimated.

*This* was the important part of Toulon -- trash the infrastructure, and all those ships are effectively useless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berthier

I think it's also important to separate French losses out from those of the Spanish, lukewarm allies at best,

Given the noted uselessness of Spanish crews....

That said: France had access to Spanish ships at the time -- Britain didn't; which meant the British had to deal with the Spanish as enemies unless and until such time as Spain either fell apart altogether, or (as happened) rose against France.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berthier

as the fight for naval supremacy was always going to come down to Britaina and France with sundry allies for each side at different times. French naval construction continued unabated to about 1811 I think but could never make good the losses in ships nor find the quality of crews needed.

I think that latter part was more important than anything else -- it doesn't matter how many ships one has if one cannot put people on them, much less people who have the first clue what it is they're doing (see above re the Spanish).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Comte de Brueys

What has Ulm to do with the French Navy? :confused:

Well, consider that the PM at the time, upon hearing of Ulm and Austerlitz, pointed to a map of Continental Europe and said "Put that way -- we shall not be needing it for another ten years".... (He reckoned without Napoleon's ham-handedness in Spain two years later; but it did take ten years to get from Trafalgar to Waterloo.) Control of the sea is important; but eventually, one has to put boots on the ground (Infantry is not so much unimportant as "the last in line").
10-22-2012, 15:31
Coog

The Action of 21 October 1794 was a minor naval engagement fought off the Breton coast of France during the second year of the French Revolutionary Wars. French frigates had been raiding British Atlantic trade routes with considerable success since the outbreak of the war, and in response the Admiralty had formed a frigate squadron to patrol the French Channel and Atlantic coasts in search of French raiders. On 13 October 1794, the large, modern and powerful 40-gun French frigate Révolutionnaire under the command of Captain Antoine René Thévenard sailed from Le Havre for a raiding cruise against British trade routes in the Atlantic. Eight days later, while rounding the Breton headland of Ushant about 25–30 nautical miles (56 km) miles out to sea, Révolutionnaire encountered the British frigate squadron, commanded by Commodore Sir Edward Pellew, which had secured a number of victories over French raiding frigates during the previous two years.

Pellew ordered his ships to give chase, as Thévenard fled towards the French coast before the British numerical supremacy. One British ship was faster than the others, the 38-gun HMS Artois under Captain Edmund Nagle cutting Révolutionnaire off from the shore and bringing the larger French ship to action. For 45 minutes Artois battled Révolutionnaire until support arrived, at which point the French frigate's crew surrendered their ship in defiance of their captain's orders. Casualties and damage were light on both sides, and Révolutionnaire was rapidly commissioned into the Royal Navy, joining the squadron that had captured her and subsequently capturing the French frigate Unité at the Action of 13 April 1796.

The French Republic declared war on Great Britain in February 1793, the French Navy immediately launching squadrons, individual cruisers and privateers against British trade routes in the Eastern Atlantic. The French Atlantic fleet, based at the fortified port of Brest in Brittany, was in a state of political turmoil during the early years of the war, suffering a mutiny in August 1793, and then defeat at the battle of Glorious First of June in 1794. In spite of these difficulties, the independent raiders caused considerable damage to British commerce, and in response the Admiralty ordered a squadron of frigates from the Channel Fleet to cruise the French coastline in search of these raiders. This force, known as the flying squadron and initially commanded by Sir John Borlase Warren, achieved a number of successes in the first year of the war, most notably in the Action of 23 April 1794, when a French frigate squadron was destroyed.

By the autumn of 1794, the squadron was under the command of Commodore Sir Edward Pellew in the frigate HMS Arethusa, accompanied by HMS Artois under Captain Edmund Nagle, HMS Diamond under Captain Sir Sidney Smith and HMS Galatea under Captain Richard Goodwin Keats. All four ships had specially selected crews and equipment and the squadron formed the elite force of the Channel Fleet's light warships. Pellew led his squadron out of Cawsand Bay on 19 October with the intention of cruising off the entrance to Brest and intercepting shipping entering or leaving the port. The French fleet, its principal squadrons blockaded in Brest, continued to send raiders to sea. One such ship, was the large newly-commissioned 40-gun frigate Révolutionnaire under Captain Antoine René Thévenard with a hastily assembled and disaffected crew and a main battery of 18–pounder cannon, which departed from the Channel port of Le Havre on 13 October, sailing westwards towards the Atlantic.

On 21 October, eight days after leaving Le Havre, and between 25–30 nautical miles (56 km) off the island of Ushant at the tip of the Breton Peninsula, Pellew's squadron discovered Révolutionnaire at dawn. Pellew immediately ordered his ships to give chase while Thévenard turned away in an effort to reach the shoreline before the larger British squadron could overwhelm his ship. Pellew's squadron was however to windward of the French ship, thus cutting it off from the relative safety of the shore and instead Révolutionnaire swung southeast in an effort to outdistance the British squadron and pull ahead of Pellew's ships in the hazy weather.

One British frigate, Nagle's Artois, was however faster than the others. Artois was a strong modern frigate with a main battery of 9–pounder cannon and 32–pounder carronades on the quarterdeck, and Nagle was able to bring his frigate alongside the slightly larger French vessel. For forty minutes the two frigates traded broadsides, Nagle's fire damaging the French ship's rigging and slowing Révolutionnaire enough that the rest of Pellew's squadron could come up. Captain Smith's Diamond was the first to reach the combat, Smith ranging his ship up below Thévenard's stern and firing two warning shots to indicate that unless the French ship surrendered he would fire a devastating raking broadside into the French ship's stern. Arethusa and Galatea were close behind Diamond, and although Thévenard wished to continue the engagement, his men refused and the French captain was forced to surrender. At the point Révolutionnaire surrendered, breakers from the waves striking the Saints Rocks could be seen dead ahead.

Casualties were light on both sides, Révolutionnaire losing five men killed and four wounded, including Thévenard who had suffered minor wounds. Artois was the only British ship engaged, losing two sailors and a lieutenant of Royal Marines killed and five men wounded. Pellew's squadron brought Révolutionnaire back to Falmouth immediately, having discovered an outbreak of small pox among the prisoners of war taken from the French frigate. Subsequently, the light damage the ship had suffered enabled the Royal Navy to rapidly purchase and commission the frigate as the 38-gun HMS Révolutionnaire under the command of Captain Francis Cole and attach the ship to Pellew's squadron. Eighteen months later, Révolutionnaire fought and captured the French frigate Unité at the Action of 12 April 1796, and remained in the Royal Navy throughout the following 21 years of warfare. The arrival of Révolutionnaire in Britain caused a stir among naval architects as the frigate was significantly larger than those produced in Britain at the time. The ship was extensively planned and modelled and a ship was commissioned for the Royal Navy to the design of Révolutionnaire, although severe delays at the shipyards meant that HMS Forte as the ship was eventually named, was not launched until 1814.

In reward for his action against Révolutionnaire, Nagle was made a Knight Bachelor, and first Lieutenant Robert Dudley Oliver was promoted to commander. Pellew, in his report on the action, stated that "the cripped state of the Enemy allows me the Opportunity of saying, that her Resiliance could have been of no Avail, had the Artois been alone", but historian William James was more reserved, noting in 1827 that the ships "would have been a well matched pair of combatants, had the Artois been alone." The prize money was extensive: part payment of £10,000 (915,007 as of 2012) was made in January 1795, the reward shared between the entire squadron. Pellew, who had been knighted the previous year following the Action of 18 June 1793, was reported to be unhappy that Nagle had been honoured for his part in this action and complained to the Admiralty about the condition and speed of Arethusa, requesting a faster vessel. The following year he would receive command of the 44-gun razee HMS Indefatigable as a result.
10-23-2012, 01:04
Comte de Brueys
Quote:

Originally Posted by csadn

If I remember correctly: Most of those "captured" ships were taken back when Bonaparte's forces retook Toulon; the British never got around to destroying them, and only took three of them when they left. (See the thread on captured ships in the captor's navy elsewhere on the forum.)

The French Fleet in Toulon August 1793:

17 Ships of the Line - ready for battle
1. Commerce de Marseille (120)
2. Tonnant (80)
3. Apollon (74)
4. Centaure (74)
5. Commerce der Bordeaux (74)
6. Destin (74)
7. Douguay-Troiun (74)
8. Entrepenent (74)
9. Generaux (74)
10. Heros (74)
11. Heureux (74)
12. Lys (74)
13. Orion (74)
14. Patriote (74)
15. Pompee (74)
16. Scipion (74)
17. Themistocle (74)
+ frigates & corvettes

In repair and maintenance:
1. Dauphin-Royal (120)
2. Couronne (80)
3. Languedoc (80)
4. Triumphent (80)
5. Puisant (74)
6. Suffisant (74)
7. Alcide (74)
8. Censeur (74)
9. Conquerant (74)
10. Dictateur (74)
11. Guerrier (74)
12. Mercure (74)
13. Trajan (74)
14. Souverain (74)
+ 3 frigates (under repair) 2 frigates & 2 corvettes (under construction)

One ship of the line (74) was in the Mediterranean Sea together with 12 frigates (3x40, 2x38, 5x36 & 2x28) and 4 corvettes.
10-23-2012, 01:20
Comte de Brueys
When the British & Spanish fleets/troops occupied Toulon, they grabbed 31 war ships.

They burned 15 war ships (10 SoL & 5 frigates), anchored in the ?roadstead?, when leaving Toulon december 1793
1. Triomphant (80)
2. Destin (74)
3. Centaure (74)
4. Duguay- Trouin(74)
5. XXX (74)
6. Heros (74)
7. Liberte (ex. Dictateur) (74)
8. Sufisant (74)
9. Themistocle (74)
10. Tricolor (ex. Lys) (74)
1. Victorieuse (36)
2. Montreal (32)
3. Isis (32)
4. Auguste (24)
5. Caroline (24)
Those ships were a complete loss and shortened the entrance into the habour. The French worked 8 - 10 years to clear the entrance.

The Royal Navy took over:
1. Commerce de Marsseille (120)
2. Pompee (74)
3. Puissant (74)
4. Scipion (74)
+ 9 Frigates

The British left some ships ?runned down? in the habour.

Interesting detail: After the recapture of Toulon, the French Revolutinonary troops left the white flag of the French Royal Bourbons on Buildings and forts and captures a lot of enemy war & trade ships with support goods for the besieged city the next five weeks.

So it was indeed one of the top three losses for the french fleet in the Revolutionary/Napoleonic age.
10-23-2012, 01:29
Comte de Brueys

Quote:

Originally Posted by csadn

Well, consider that the PM at the time, upon hearing of Ulm and Austerlitz, pointed to a map of Continental Europe and said "Put that way -- we shall not be needing it for another ten years".... (He reckoned without Napoleon's ham-handedness in Spain two years later; but it did take ten years to get from Trafalgar to Waterloo.) Control of the sea is important; but eventually, one has to put boots on the ground (Infantry is not so much unimportant as "the last in line").

I know that Trafalgar 1805 didn't seal Napoleons fate like Midway 1942 for the Japanese that lost their backbone of their carrier forces and navy pilots.

But the result was essential for sea warfare.

Allowing the British to transfer & evacuate troops to every point in Europe without being handicaped by pro-French fleets.
10-23-2012, 15:33
csadn

OK -- I'm not sure which book you got this from, but I see a couple problems with it -- for one: _Duguay-Trouin_ is listed as one ship in the first list, but *two* ships in the second....

That said -- here's the lists combined:

Quote:

Commerce de Marseille (120) [taken]; Tonnant (80); Apollon (74); Centaure (74) [burned]; Commerce der Bordeaux (74); Destin (74) [burned]; Douguay-Troiun (74) [burned (twice?)]; Entrepenent (74); Generaux (74); Heros (74) [burned]; Heureux (74); Lys (74) [_Tricolor_; burned]; Orion (74); Patriote (74); Pompee (74) [taken]; Scipion (74) [taken]; Themistocle (74) [burned]; Victorieuse (36) [burned]; Montreal (32) [burned]; Isis (32) [burned]; Auguste (24) [burned]; Caroline (24) [burned]

In repair and maintenance:

Dauphin-Royal (120); Couronne (80); Languedoc (80); Triumphent (80) [burned]; Puisant (74) [taken]; Suffisant (74) [burned]; Alcide (74); Censeur (74); Conquerant (74); Dictateur (74) [_Liberte_; burned]; Guerrier (74); Mercure (74); Trajan (74); Souverain (74)

Phrased another way: The British left intact 8 functional SoL, and another 10 repairable SoL; plus however many frigates and smaller ships they failed to destroy or take when they left; plus that squadron wandering the Med. Yes, they did damage -- but the fact that the French Navy was still a going concern as late as 1805 suggests it wasn't quite as devastating as, say, Traflalgar (where the French and Spanish left with 33 ships, and came back with *9*; that's no fewer than *24* ships lost -- and that includes the four ships of the CF van which were later taken at Cape Ortegal, and the ships lost in the failed effort two days later to recapture ships lost in the battle proper), after which the French never made a fleet-level effort; or Aboukir, where not only did the French lose a complete squadron, but (after a couple years) the army it was supporting.
10-23-2012, 23:29
Comte de Brueys

That's right.

I think they didn't capture the complete (in my first post) listed ships of the line when they took Toulon. 31 warships ships in total, the 14 listed SoL included.

I can't imagine that they leave an undamaged SoL in the harbour. I'll recheck that.

Additional: There was a complicated situation when the British arrived. Some ships left the harbour, some prepared to fight versus the enemy fleet and the contrarevolutionary city governement.

The other point:

Duguay-Trouin (1788), built in Brest, 74 cannons, 1788-1793

Maybe I didn't copy the list correct. I'll recheck that, too.;)

It's from the book: Detlef Wenzlik - Frankreichs Seekriege gegen England
10-24-2012, 03:46
Comte de Brueys

From the French Wiki internet page:

Côté maritime, la flotte de la Méditerranée perd la majeure partie de ses équipages (morts lors du siège, exécutés en décembre ou réfugiés chez les Britanniques), le contenu des magasins de l'arsenal et la moitié de ses vaisseaux :

Hood emporte avec lui quelques-unes des plus belles unités de la marine française : le Commerce de Marseille (un 118 canons, chef d'œuvre de Sané lancé en 1788, navire amiral de la flotte du Levant), le Pompée (un 74, lancé en 1791), le Scipion (74, datant de 1790), et le Puissant (74, de 1782)

My list seems correct.

les Britanniques ont totalement brûlé huit vaisseaux, y compris des unité neuves : le Thémistocle (74, de 1791), le Duguay-Trouin (74, de 1788), le Tricolore (74, de 1785), le Suffisant (74, de 1782), la Liberté (74, de 1782), le Triomphant (un 80 canons, lancé en 1779), le Héros (74, de 1778) et le Destin (74, de 1777)

Seems I've got two ships of the line more on my (burn-) list. The Duguay and the Trouin are one ship and it seems that the British burn the Centaure (74) but it wasn't a total loss.

quatorze vaisseaux seront néanmoins repris par l'armée de la République en décembre 1793, mais la plupart seront retrouvés forts endommagés (souvent en partie brûlés ou dégradés), et peu seront en état de prendre la mer à court terme : le Sans-Culotte (118), le Tonnant (80), le Languedoc (80), l’Entreprenant (74), le Généreux (74), le Mercure (74), l’Heureux (74), le Centaure (74), le Censeur (74), l’Alcide (74) ; les autres vaisseaux survivants sont particulièrement vieux : le Conquérant (74, lancé en 1749), le Peuple Souverain (74, datant de 1757), le Guerrier (74, de 1753) et le Hardi (64, de 1750). Beaucoup de ces unités seront coulées ou prises lors des batailles du cap Noli et des îles d'Hyères en 1795, et surtout lors de celle d'Aboukir en 1798.

These are the ships the French could retake when they "liberate" Toulon.
10-24-2012, 04:02
Comte de Brueys
Those are the ships from the August 1793 fleet list that weren't in the harbour:
1. Apollon (80)
2. Commerce de Bordeaux (74)
3. Orion (74)
4. Patriote(74)
5. Couronne (80)
6. Trajan (74)
August 1793:

31 ships of the line in the habour of Toulon + 1 ships of the line in the mediterranean sea (whatever it's name was):p.

December 1793:

8 SoL burned (total losses)
4 SoL captured
13 SoL damaged or in bad condition
6 + 1 SoL ready for action
10-24-2012, 14:58
csadn

Quote:

Originally Posted by Comte de Brueys

I can't imagine that they leave an undamaged SoL in the harbour.

I can, for several reasons:

1) It took a lot of crew to move a SoL -- both on the SoL itself, and on the boats required to maneuver it out of dock. The British didn't have that many people.

2) The British also didn't expect to get booted out of Toulon as swiftly as they did -- and it takes time to properly arrange to trash a port. For another example, witness what happened when the Federals has to leave Norfolk, VA, at the start of the American Civil War (hint: "CSS _Virginia_" >:) ).

3) Related to the above: Yes, a ship will burn (despite what the mental-defectives on the forums for Eric Flint's _1632_ series think...) -- but it needs help to burn thoroughly. The British hadn't bothered to do that prep-work, either.

The evac from Toulon was more "Saigon 1975" than any sort of organized effort, and a lot of stuff which should have been done, wasn't. Yes, the british did some damage, but it took Aboukir Bay to finish the job.