Your experiences playing with Wave 2 ships?

Well, I think we've heard plenty about the broken mast issue. Now to the more fun part....how do they play differently in games?
I've only had one game so far with them. It was a wave 1 SOL and a wave 2 heavy frigate per side just going at it. I had some friends over and we were just teaching them to play. It probably wasn't a good test of the new frigates because the game was unusual in that we ended up keeping a fair amount of range between us. Most of the damage was A chits, when I usually see lots of B chits in the typical games I've run at cons.
I was one of the captains of the heavy frigates. As I expected, the burden 4 made a big difference in survivability, especially at A chit range. A SOL will still kick its ass, but against each other, they didn't fold so fast. So, I had to give the big boy the usual respect, but I had more confidence in not feeling so damned fragile. It was more fun. I played it like I did a normal frigate, but I lived longer. I tend to be a little reckless.
I haven't tried the sloop yet. They're SO fragile. I'm just curious how they're going to do well and would like to hear of your experiences with them.

Still haven't used them. I just got mine a week ago, so I guess I have a good excuse. But it's still a bit frustrating not to have gotten them onto the map yet.

Back when I was planning scenarios for the contest I wanted to be able to use Wave 2 ships, but couldn't. Now we have the upcoming solitaire campaign on the Anchorage here, and it's still restricted to Wave 1 ships--so between thinking of scenarios and trying out solitaire rules, I've still been sticking to Wave 1. But I hope to get some heavy frigates and sloops into the water before too long...

My first game with the big frigates will be this coming Friday at Diecon. Have not used the first rates yet, either.

I used a French 1st Rate in a test of the solo rules on Saturday evening. They are lumbering behemoths that can take a lot of damage. You really don't want to get caught in a full broadside either (unless you're another 1st rate).

Keeping in mind that I was only using Basic Rules I expect with Standard and Advanced Rules the added damage types could be devastating?!

I was planning to do a testrun of a heavy frigate and A 3rd rate SOL against a first rate tonight :question:

I tried one of the heavy frigates in a scenario from the historical scenario book. Since the French were trying to run away, it was not a good assessment of their capabilities. AAR here:

http://www.sailsofglory.org/showthre...-scenario-book

I captained a British 1st Rate at Origins last week. They can give and take a lot of punishment... but bad damage draws can still happen. I eventually lost the 1st Rate to loss of crew. I only had 2 or 3 full boxes of damage to the ship proper, but lots of musket fire ripped through the crew very fast. Had we been playing with crew Actions, this would have been even harder to deal with.

Crew hits were deadly at Origins. Many ships become prizes, if you will, mainly intact, well, with the exception of blood and guts splattered everywhere.

I had a British frigate at origins. I died almost instantly when a French sol turned inside me. I came back on and managed to hold on against Sven's sol. Got into a close range rear raking shot and drew 3 0's for damage. My crew was shooting blanks all day. I renamed my ship the "drunken monkey".

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Originally Posted by Tommy Z

I had a British frigate at origins. I died almost instantly when a French sol turned inside me. I came back on and managed to hold on against Sven's sol. Got into a close range rear raking shot and drew 3 0's for damage. My crew was shooting blanks all day. I renamed my ship the "drunken monkey".

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Great name for a ship! Sorry there were setbacks, but I'll bet you had fun just the same? :happy:

It was all fun, even getting blown out of the water! :cannonboom::rum:

Has anyone had a 1st rate vs 3rd rate battle they can report on, please?

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Originally Posted by Naharaht

Has anyone had a 1st rate vs 3rd rate battle they can report on, please?

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An exchange between the HMS Bellona and the Austerlitz was my second test of the solo rules. I'm not sure it's worthy of an AAR, but I can post some comments and/or photos? Was there something in particular you wanted to know David?

I was experimenting with a damage reduced damage set. Wanted to use it at Dicon, but still playing with it. The idea is to reduce the number large damage chits and crew casualties, to slow down the game slightly. Crew attrits way too quickly in the game. Way more crew was lost in battle by falling spars and wood splinters than musketry. As a matter of fact, marines generally were trying to shoot people that were influencing the crew (officers basically), and other marines to prevent the enemy from doing the same to you.

We saw some of this at Origins. Folks liked the big hit chits; in fact I would say the big hit chits were a big hit. Seldom did they sway a game or end it prematurely, if you will. Crew hits, on the other hand, seemed somewhat excessive at times, unless someone was firing grape - that fit the ammo being fired.

I would leave the big hit chits in myself. They add to much excitement to the games to pull them out. I can say as a player, I was rather bummed to have lost my 90% intact 1st rate to lose of crew. While the crew damage track is longer on the 1st rates, it's still a one for one exchange since burden is not account for. I'm thinking there might not be enough resolution in this area to really make the different ships stand apart.

Finally got some first-rates into play!

I had Montaigne (beautiful ship!) and Redoubtable against HMS Royal George and HMS Defiance. I used the solo rules to direct the British ships, which were deployed to try to break my line.

The battle went strongly in my favor. The AI, naturally, doesn't have any notion of coordination. Royal George charged right in, while Defiance nibbled at the edges. Early on Royal George took a wicked rake from Montaigne, and then heavy fire from Redoubtable while Montaigne also took a potshot once in a while. The first rake essentially ruined Royal George, dealing 11 A chits and a rough draw which included a fire, a leak and a mast down. She battled a good long while anyway, consuming at least 60 chits worth of damage, mostly at A range but a good bit of B too. But she was so slow she couldn't close the distance, and Redoubtable continued to chip away. Finally the British flagship was left in the sorry state of leaking with one hull box and one available action (plus 2 masts down)--all she could do was limp forward, pump and wait to die.

Montaigne, still mostly undamaged, ponderously tacked and eventually closed with Defiance. They traded shots, which was not really in Defiance's favor. Finally Defiance ended up caught between a full broadside from Montaigne and a rake from the returning Redoubtable. 16 A chits turned a fairly serviceable SOL into a hulk with no crew, two hull boxes and FOUR leaks. That was that.

It was an odd battle since crew damage was not a big factor (at least until that final shot), no musketry was fired (let alone boarding), and much of the gunfire was A range.

These ships can take a lot of damage, but they also deal a lot, and they are still susceptible to special damage hits falling in clusters. The "straight at 'em" Nelsonian tactics sure didn't work well for Royal George...

Lopsided but fun. They all looked great together on the board!

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Originally Posted by fredmiracle

Finally got some first-rates into play!

I had Montaigne (beautiful ship!) and Redoubtable against HMS Royal George and HMS Defiance. I used the solo rules to direct the British ships, which were deployed to try to break my line.

The battle went strongly in my favor. The AI, naturally, doesn't have any notion of coordination. Royal George charged right in, while Defiance nibbled at the edges. Early on Royal George took a wicked rake from Montaigne, and then heavy fire from Redoubtable while Montaigne also took a potshot once in a while. The first rake essentially ruined Royal George, dealing 11 A chits and a rough draw which included a fire, a leak and a mast down. She battled a good long while anyway, consuming at least 60 chits worth of damage, mostly at A range but a good bit of B too. But she was so slow she couldn't close the distance, and Redoubtable continued to chip away. Finally the British flagship was left in the sorry state of leaking with one hull box and one available action (plus 2 masts down)--all she could do was limp forward, pump and wait to die.

Montaigne, still mostly undamaged, ponderously tacked and eventually closed with Defiance. They traded shots, which was not really in Defiance's favor. Finally Defiance ended up caught between a full broadside from Montaigne and a rake from the returning Redoubtable. 16 A chits turned a fairly serviceable SOL into a hulk with no crew, two hull boxes and FOUR leaks. That was that.

It was an odd battle since crew damage was not a big factor (at least until that final shot), no musketry was fired (let alone boarding), and much of the gunfire was A range.

These ships can take a lot of damage, but they also deal a lot, and they are still susceptible to special damage hits falling in clusters. The "straight at 'em" Nelsonian tactics sure didn't work well for Royal George...

Lopsided but fun. They all looked great together on the board!

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Sounds like fun! About how long did it take in real time to fight the battle?

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Originally Posted by Nightmoss

Sounds like fun! About how long did it take in real time to fight the battle?

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I think 1.5 hours, maybe a bit more

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Originally Posted by fredmiracle

I think 1.5 hours, maybe a bit more

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Thanks! I've not moved on to the Standard or Advance Rules yet so I was curious if that added significantly to the time to play equation.

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Originally Posted by Nightmoss

Thanks! I've not moved on to the Standard or Advance Rules yet so I was curious if that added significantly to the time to play equation.

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I thought it would add a lot of time, but it doesn't really. Deciding the actions to play takes a few moments, but it's pretty quick.

A few thoughts:

- Advanced rules are more deadly, I think, thanks to critical hits. Still chit draws, maneuvers, and lucky or unlucky breaks with borderline calls on broadsides and rakes will do more to dictate the pace and nature of the damages

- Action limits usually only start being an issue once a ship is in pretty bad shape. Most of the time ships can do what they need to do, But they do make crew losses that much more of a big deal, and often the last throes of a close battle become much more dramatic.

- Special damages definitely add flavor. Fires and leaks are the biggies of course. Sail and rudder damage rarely have much effect. Multiple mast hits are pretty rare, so your one repair will often get you out of the woods.

- I do like being able to raise and lower sails. This can be good for avoiding collisions when your planned movements were ill-conceived, since (as I understand it) the change takes place immediately, i.e. before movement on the same turn it's planned. If both ships either raise or lower sails appropriately, you have a lot of variability to play with to avoid impact. Sail setting can also facilitate coordinated movement between ships in a squadron

- I've been playing two card ahead movement, but I'm still not sure I like it or think it's has a realistic feel. It is more challenging though


Really the thing with advanced rules isn't so much the time it takes, as simply the complexity--it is more to keep track of. With one or two ships, this is basically a plus. But if you are trying to play several ships it will probably reach overload, and better to stick with the basic rules. I think running 4 or 5 ships with the basic rules is pretty doable...

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Originally Posted by fredmiracle

The "straight at 'em" Nelsonian tactics sure didn't work well for Royal George...

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That tactic worked for Nelson because he knew his opponents were hopelessly inept (save perhaps for _Redoutable_'s musketeers... >:) ); for an example of what happens when employing such tactics against a competent foe, see Battle of Lissa, 1866.

"Know your enemy"

As true then as it always was, and always will be

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Originally Posted by The Royal Hajj

I would leave the big hit chits in myself. They add to much excitement to the games to pull them out. I can say as a player, I was rather bummed to have lost my 90% intact 1st rate to lose of crew. While the crew damage track is longer on the 1st rates, it's still a one for one exchange since burden is not account for. I'm thinking there might not be enough resolution in this area to really make the different ships stand apart.

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Should we include a multiplier to the number of crew token a for 1st rate can receive as damage to indicate the GREAT number of crew. When you look at the information about the scoops, with 125 crew, but 7 crew box and a 1030 crew for 12 crew box for a 1st rate. The number of crew box for a sloop see high compared to the 1st rates. For example we could say that a first rate is taking 2 crew damage per box compared to scoops. Otherwise we end up having a smaller crew being capable of capturing a 1st rate rather easily if I read the comments correctly.

What do you think?

Guys,

I ended up playing with a pure damage set at Diecon. I think your right the damage is okay, its the crew thats the issue. Had a big discussion about this after the game with the other veteran players at the table, mainly FlyXwire and myself. Crew casualties with shot would occur primarily from falling debris and hull splinters or toppling guns. Seems to me in the A & B damage sets, crew damage without hull damage is somewhat anomolous. Not to say an occasional cannon ball didn't take off arms legs or completely splatter someone, but normally crew casualties in a sailing ship battle occur from the ship flying apart around you.

Also, there are not enough broken mast damage counters. It is almost impossible to dis-mast a ship. Anyway, leave the options open for experimentation.

Bob

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Originally Posted by HMS Lydia

Also, there are not enough broken mast damage counters. It is almost impossible to dis-mast a ship. Anyway, leave the options open for experimentation.

Bob

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Have you tried shooting at the sails, instead of the hull? There's an optional rule for that.

In the games I played it occurs frequently enough that we have mast damage, we had games with 2 mast at the same time that were broken. But we never had a ship surrender because his 3 masts are down.

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Originally Posted by HMS Lydia

Guys,

I ended up playing with a pure damage set at Diecon. I think your right the damage is okay, its the crew thats the issue. Had a big discussion about this after the game with the other veteran players at the table, mainly FlyXwire and myself. Crew casualties with shot would occur primarily from falling debris and hull splinters or toppling guns. Seems to me in the A & B damage sets, crew damage without hull damage is somewhat anomolous. Not to say an occasional cannon ball didn't take off arms legs or completely splatter someone, but normally crew casualties in a sailing ship battle occur from the ship flying apart around you.

Also, there are not enough broken mast damage counters. It is almost impossible to dis-mast a ship. Anyway, leave the options open for experimentation.

Bob

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Don't forget that a second Rudder damage = a broken mast, or the 6th sail hit = unrepairable broken mast.

I do find the question of damage tokens tough to decide.

The biggest thing, I think, is that the damage is extremely variable. If you have 4 muskets and draw 4 crew kills, it's huge. If you draw 1, it's not that big a deal. Your enemy can throw 5 B tokens at you and with luck you end up with a couple of boxes taken out. On the other extreme, you can have 3 A tokens, and if the draw includes two fires it can end up killing 6-7 hull boxes. What has happened to me recently will tend to color my views on damage :wink:

I agree that losing two masts is not unheard of, but three never seems to happen. But then, since that's an auto-surrender, I wouldn't want it to be too frequent. At least mast hits do have significant effects. Crew eliminations are quite frequent, but so are hull eliminations--overall they seem fairly balanced, and crew loss can be an equalizer to give several small ships a chance against one larger one. Maybe crews do attrit a bit too fast, but I don't think it's dramatically off-kilter. I'm warming up to the "Hold Fast" ability as a partial equalizer. Fires and leaks can be absolute killer when they happen in clusters. For the most part I like these mechanics, but I do allow preventative extinguish actions. It can be sad, though, when a ship is stuck pumping with no other available action. In general sail and rudder damage tend to have minimal effect on the game, and perhaps could be spiced up a bit.

I do generally play with straight ball ammo. Conceding all that range to try to set up just the right specialized shot rarely works out well for me, probably because my tactics are poor...

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Originally Posted by Tommy Z

I had a British frigate at origins. I died almost instantly when a French sol turned inside me. I came back on and managed to hold on against Sven's sol. Got into a close range rear raking shot and drew 3 0's for damage. My crew was shooting blanks all day. I renamed my ship the "drunken monkey".

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Wrong :happy:
Drunken monkeys still can deliver damage :beer:

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Originally Posted by nilliom

Should we include a multiplier to the number of crew token a for 1st rate can receive as damage to indicate the GREAT number of crew. When you look at the information about the scoops, with 125 crew, but 7 crew box and a 1030 crew for 12 crew box for a 1st rate. The number of crew box for a sloop see high compared to the 1st rates. For example we could say that a first rate is taking 2 crew damage per box compared to scoops. Otherwise we end up having a smaller crew being capable of capturing a 1st rate rather easily if I read the comments correctly.

What do you think?

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Most of my games (8 with wave 1 ships) ends with full crew loss. So I agree, maybe we have not enough crew slots or too much crew damage.
On the other hand, if you loose half of your man/crew then it makes your ship badly manageable. Regardless how big or small the ship is.